|
The Half-Elves get "Inspire Imitation: Whenever a half-elf succeeds at a skill check, she can inspire imitators as a swift action. Any ally within 30 feet who witnesses the successful check and attempts the same check within the next minute gains a +2 bonus on the check as if from the aid another action. This racial trait replaces skilled. PPC:HotS"
but the half-elves don't get Skilled at all so can someone help me on this please ?
Sorry for taking your time,
Gilthorne
You can get the Human's Skilled racial trait via alternate racial traits of the Half-Elf. There are a few options, either taking "Round Ears" during character creation or afterwards through Retraining.
Round Ears:
Sometimes half-elves are born with no obvious elven features. Their parents may even be humans with only faint traces of elven blood. They gain the human’s skilled racial trait. In addition, they receive a +4 racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear human. This racial trait replaces adaptability, keen senses, and low-light vision.
You trade away Adaptability, Keen Senses, and Low-Light Vision, which is a steep cost in my opinion.
Retraining offers alternate options:
Humans can trade their Skilled trait for "Fey Magic" + "Fey Thoughts" + Low-Light Vision. As a Half-Elf you can get Fey Magic & Fey Thoughts for Keen Senses and Multitalented respectively, and you already have Low-Light Vision; you can trade all three of those for Inspire Imitation (since both packages replace the Skilled trait).
You can also take the "Poison Minion" trait as a Half-Elf, trading away Elven Immunities & Keen Senses. Then you can retrain it to Inspire Imitation (both packages replace the Skilled trait).
You can take the "Dimdweller" trait as a Half-Elf (replaces Adaptability); and you can get Darkvision 60ft via "Drow-Blooded" (replaces your Low-Light Vision) or via "Blended View" (either for your Keen Senses or Multitalented). The package Dimdweller + Darkvision 60ft can be retrained for Inspire Imitation (both replace the Skilled trait).
Not a problem. This is how I spend my excess time anyway. And helping you means I’m not building another munchkin.
It replaces Adaptability (Skill Focus feat is the term they use): https://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/clarifications
To keep in mind, the above post from Oli Ironbar is for Pathfinder Society Play, not a FAQ/rule.
You can get the Human's Skilled racial trait via alternate racial traits of the Half-Elf. There are a few options, either taking "Round Ears" during character creation or afterwards through Retraining.
If your GM allows the retraining of intrinsic racial attributes, maybe.
Some of the options listed below involve retraining features of your character that are essentially permanent parts of your heritage, such as a sorcerer’s bloodline. The cost of retraining these things presumably includes magical or alchemical alterations to your body. The GM might rule that these changes are unavailable in the campaign, are only available under rare circumstances, take longer, are temporary, require some sort of quest, or are more expensive than the listed cost.
Explicit rules in the ARG prevent you from using Round Ears. Even though that trait grants you skilled, it's not something half-elves normally have access to: "To take one of these alternate racial traits, you must exchange one or more of the existing standard racial traits available to the race. You can exchange one or several of the standard racial traits, but you cannot exchange the same racial trait more than once."
As for retraining, the method is... dubious, and I'm not sure that cross-racial bootstrapping works, even for half-elves. The issue with it is, again, that half-elves don't normally have skilled.
To keep in mind, the above post from Oli Ironbar is for Pathfinder Society Play, not a FAQ/rule.Not a problem. This is how I spend my excess time anyway. And helping you means I’m not building another munchkin.
It replaces Adaptability (Skill Focus feat is the term they use): https://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/clarifications
Since the FAQ/rule level clarification never happened despite a clear need for it (check the product thread,) the PFS clarification is as good as it'll get - and requires jumping through fewer hoops than forcing your character into a First World Touched or Drow Test Subject background and then relying on the GM to give you access to chirurgery, all for the purpose of being able to use Delayed Blast Aid Another. :P
If your GM allows...
is the most useless of comments on rules ever.
As for retraining, the method is... dubious
There's nothing dubious about it. It's all spelled out in the retraining rules:
If your campaign uses alternate racial traits, you can retrain a racial trait. This takes 20 nonconsecutive days and requires a trainer with the racial trait you want.
The replacement trait must be an appropriate one from your racial list. The old and new racial traits must replace the same standard racial trait.
For example, the magic resistant and stubborn alternate dwarven traits replace the hardy standard trait, so you can retrain one of those for the other.
You can even take the Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) feat, trade Darkvision for Skilled and then retrain it into Inspire Imitation. That's the purpose of abilities like Racial Heritage or Elf Blood: Players are supposed to gain something valuable for their investments, it's not just flavor.
I am pretty sure that double replacement of alternate racial traits is not allowed. If it were allowed, the Round Ears alternate racial trait would have said that you can take a replacement for Skilled instead of Skilled with it. See the Duergar "Dwarf Traits" for an example.
The very fact that you are discussing retraining is a clue that this tactic is not legitimate, as you clearly have no way to get there at character creation.
And there are some limits on the Racial Heritage feat. One example is the kobold Tail Terror feat, as the feat mentions letting you do something with your tail but does not give you a tail. Alternate racial traits are another exception, as you cannot replace a standard racial trait that you do not have. But for a feat, trait, prestige class, or other freely selectable option that might have a prerequisite of a specific race (and does not have other prerequisites that the character does not meet), the Racial Heritage feat works just fine.
is the most useless of comments on rules ever.
"If your GM allows" is literally a rule for using alternate racials: "As with any alternate or optional rule, you must first get the permission of your GM to exchange any of your character’s normal racial traits for those in this chapter."
Also under retraining: "Some of the options listed below involve retraining features of your character that are essentially permanent parts of your heritage, such as a sorcerer’s bloodline. The cost of retraining these things presumably includes magical or alchemical alterations to your body. The GM might rule that these changes are unavailable in the campaign, are only available under rare circumstances, take longer, are temporary, require some sort of quest, or are more expensive than the listed cost."
Also, what makes your method dubious is that it requires chain-swapping, which is not allowed.
"E" = elven immunities + keen senses.
"P" = poison minion.
"X" = psychic sensitivity.
"S" = skilled.
"I" = inspire imitation.
The example is this. "I normally have E. P replaces E, and X replaces E. If I take P, I can later retrain to X." This is fine.
What you're doing is this. "I normally have E. P replaces E; P replaces S; I replaces S. Since 'P replaces' creates an equivalency between E and S, and half-elves count as humans, I can treat E as though it were S and swap to I."
It doesn't work.
You can even take the Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) feat, trade Darkvision for Skilled and then retrain it into Inspire Imitation. That's the purpose of abilities like Racial Heritage or Elf Blood: Players are supposed to gain something valuable for their investments, it's not just flavor.
Racial Heritage:
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
"Racial traits" are not traits - which are a different optional rule. The feat allows you to take traits in the race group which require the chosen race, to take that race's feats, and also some spell interactions. It doesn't give you access to the list of racial traits.
Nor does it cause you to have the racial traits of the heritage; you can't swap Darkvision because you don't have Darkvision. And if you do, it's from having taken an alternate racial (Drow Blooded) and thus you can't chain-swap.
There is, however, a way; you have to be playing Mythic though. Y-Racial Heritage allows you to choose a racial trait from the heritage. While half-elves can't take RH (human) or RH (half-elf), it turns out that half-orcs have Skilled. As such, with RH (half-orc) and Y-RH (half-orc), you can take Skilled and then retrain it to Inspire Imitation.
Or, you can just go with what the PFS solution was, and swap Adaptability.
I am pretty sure that double replacement of alternate racial traits is not allowed. If it were allowed, the Round Ears alternate racial trait would have said that you can take a replacement for Skilled instead of Skilled with it.
You're trying to read the mind of the rule writers, instead of reading the text.
The very fact that you are discussing retraining is a clue that this tactic is not legitimate, as you clearly have no way to get there at character creation.
Are you always trying to read minds instead of the actual text?
As I literally wrote in my first post, I discussed retraining because it offers better options: "which is a steep cost in my opinion. Retraining offers alternate options:".
So no, I think you just failed your Sense Motive check.
And there are some limits on the Racial Heritage feat. One example is the kobold Tail Terror feat, as the feat mentions letting you do something with your tail but does not give you a tail. Alternate racial traits are another exception, as you cannot replace a standard racial trait that you do not have.
Now that is indeed a deep insight: You cannot use/replace something you do not have. XD
But my Half-Elf now has X, so I can retrain it to D. :)
"If your GM allows" is literally a rule for using alternate racials...
"If your GM allows" is literally a rule for absolutely everything, from choosing races, classes, ability scores, feats, items, ...
And that is why your comment is so useless."If your GM allows" is literally a rule for using alternate racials: "As with any alternate or optional rule, you must first get the permission of your GM to exchange any of your character’s normal racial traits for those in this chapter."
Also, what makes your method dubious is that it requires chain-swapping, which is not allowed.
There's no rule against "chain-swapping". I quoted the rules about retraining racial feats in my previous post; feel free to peruse them at your own leisure.
Racial Heritage...
Racial Heritage allows you to retrain your racial traits as if you were a member of that race. Again, feel free to read the retraining rules on racial feats in my previous post.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So let's consider a few of the questions.
1. An exploration of what Racial Heritage does, and a discovery that demands an admission.
It's clear that mythic Racial Heritage allows it. at the cost of an additional feat. As for standard Racial Heritage:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs429qr?Racial-Heritage#1 - No.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l8ur?APG-Feat-Racial-Heritage#1 - No.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ocwu?Racial-Heritage-Feat#1 - No.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2obzt?Racial-Heritage-and-Archetypes - For everything the feat is understood TO do, it is understood to *not* apply to racial traits.
There is an interesting citation which, I will admit, settles the matter on allowing chain-swaps:
Racial subtypes, racial archetypes, and favored class bonuses:
...
Alternate racial traits have the additional requirement of the trait that they are listed as replacing. This means that to choose an alternate racial trait, you must have and give up the listed trait to get the new alternate. This means that in most cases, a half-elf will not qualify for human or elf alternate racial traits.
(There are exceptions to this, however: A half-orc who takes the Skilled alternate racial trait then qualifies for any human racial trait that replaces the Skilled human racial trait.)
An explicit example of a chain swap exists, in the rules.
By the way, half-elves can't take racial heritage (half-orc) because half-orcs count as human and racial heritage requires you to choose a non-human humanoid. Even allowing it, however, you would only end up with a two-feat solution: RH (gnome) to get darkvision, and then RH (half-orc) to be allowed to trade it for skilled. The cost is low light vision and keen senses.
-----
2. That said, why wouldn't Drow-Blooded or Round Ears allow this?
Because you don't actually have the "darkvision" RT (drow-blooded) or the "skilled" RT (round ears.) You have drow-blooded or round ears.
-----
3. What about poison minion?
Leaving aside the narrative problem of retraining out of it, each race has a specific path into poison minion. I see nothing that allows you to ignore a step in the process. The retraining rule allows you to do a retrain if what you're going from and what you're going into have a common ground. In the half-orc's case, for example, darkvision and heart of the fields both replace skilled.
But the important distinction here is that the half-orc actually can get skilled; there's no break in the chain from darkvision to HotF. There is a break in the chain from poison minion to inspire imitation if a half-elf attempts it: the half-elf can't actually get the "skilled" racial trait.
You might decide that this doesn't matter, and that "both replace skilled" is enough to justify the move. You might even decide that because the bootstrap is possible, it isn't necessary (and thus, at your table, inspire imitation *actually* replaces keen senses and elven immunities, instead of adaptability as PFS does it.)
I'd sooner keep it simple.
Good work, so far, someone put real effort into it. Thx!
By the way, half-elves can't take racial heritage (half-orc) because half-orcs count as human and racial heritage requires you to choose a non-human humanoid.
I think you're mixing up something here:
Racial Heritage does not require you to take "a non-human race". The feat only says "Choose another humanoid race" and the feat lists "Human" as a prerequisite.
Therefore a Half-Elf with the "Elf Blood" racial trait can take the feat (due to fulfilling the prerequisite), and then merely has to choose "another humanoid race"; such a Half-Elf could technically even choose Human as the race, although that makes no sense obviously.
The same is true for a Half-Orc with the "Orc Blood" racial trait.
As such, the fact that Half-X counts as Human does not mean you cannot take that race as your chosen humanoid race for the feat.
Prerequisites: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
The reverse is also true: Taking the feat Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) does not allow you access to archetypes/feats/... restricted to Orcs, because you do not count as an Orc: You count as a Half-Orc due to the feat, but you do not have the "Orc Blood" trait and therefore do not count as an Orc.
-----
That said, why wouldn't Drow-Blooded or Round Ears allow this?
Because you don't actually have the "darkvision" RT (drow-blooded) or the "skilled" RT (round ears.) You have drow-blooded or round ears.
Eh, what? I mean, I can understand what makes you think so, as the name of the racial traits don't match, but the rules text quite literally says that you "gain the human’s skilled racial trait":
Round Ears
Sometimes half-elves are born with no obvious elven features. Their parents may even be humans with only faint traces of elven blood. They gain the human’s skilled racial trait. In addition, they receive a +4 racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear human. This racial trait replaces adaptability, keen senses, and low-light vision.
Now you can decide whether the written rules need some incredibly strained mind-bending context before understanding it, or you can take it for what it says: "you gain the human’s skilled racial trait."
It's your choice, but as you said so yourself: "I'd sooner keep it simple."
I don't dispute that Round Ears says you gain skilled.
I will, however, dispute that this particular gaining of skilled can be unpacked from Round Ears and retrained to Inspire Imitation. The retrain rules allow you to swap a racial trait, not half of one.
Perhaps it's possible to say that the swap is possible, but that "you gain Inspire Imitation" becomes bound to having Round Ears; thus, if you retrained out of Round Ears, you'd lose Inspire Imitation as a result. Or, that the swap is possible, but that you couldn't retrain out of Round Ears until you retrained back into skilled first...
Which is another can of worms. The rules as written allow you to retrain using a bridge (B replaces A. C replaces A. Therefore you can retrain B to C) but say nothing about simple undoing (B replaces A. Therefore you can/'t? retrain B to A).
If your campaign uses alternate racial traits, you can retrain a racial trait. This takes 20 nonconsecutive days and requires a trainer with the racial trait you want. The replacement trait must be an appropriate one from your racial list. The old and new racial traits must replace the same standard racial trait. For example, the magic resistant and stubborn alternate dwarven traits replace the hardy standard trait, so you can retrain one of those for the other.
Can the dwarf retrain either of those for hardy?
----
As for racial heritage, that would allow you a two-feat solution (racial heritage for gnome and half-orc) to reach inspire imitation: {low-light vision + keen senses} -> darkvision -> skilled -> II.
Same cost as mythic and available to mere mortals.
Racial Heritage can only be taken once, as it has no text saying that you can take it more than once.
Racial Heritage can only be taken once, as it has no text saying that you can take it more than once.
Bah, forgot about that problem. >.<
Racial Heritage can only be taken once, as it has no text saying that you can take it more than once.
What he said.
But since we're talking about Half-Elves, they can use Paragon Surge to get a temporary second Racial Heritage. ^^
If your campaign uses alternate racial traits, you can retrain a racial trait. This takes 20 nonconsecutive days and requires a trainer with the racial trait you want. The replacement trait must be an appropriate one from your racial list. The old and new racial traits must replace the same standard racial trait. For example, the magic resistant and stubborn alternate dwarven traits replace the hardy standard trait, so you can retrain one of those for the other.Can the dwarf retrain either of those for hardy?
I wondered the same thing, i.e.: Can you retrain an alternate racial trait to get the standard racial trait back.
After a lengthy thinking session I came to the conclusion that yes, you can retrain those for hardy. Here's why I think so:1) Ignore the example, examples aren't rules, only the rule text matters.
2) "The replacement trait must be an appropriate one from your racial list." and standard traits are appropriate ones, no doubt about that part imo.
3) "The old and new racial traits must replace the same standard racial trait." is the tough nut to crack: The new racial trait" (i.e. the standard trait) must replace the same standard racial trait. Admittedly, there's no beautiful solution, but the word "replace" does not necessarily require that the replacement be something else, so a standard racial trait would count as replacing itself.
However, it's perfectly fine to read the 3rd part differently, and deny replacing an alternate with a standard racial trait. That part of the rules is, in my opinion, unclear, i.e. neither explicitly allowed nor explicitly forbidden.