Am I missing something about Endure Elements?

[Joe Junior]

In the campaign I'm GMing the party (lvl 3) decided to climb a nearby mountain which summit is pretty cold. While preparing the adventure, I was reading their resources and building the encounters when I noticed a couple of things about Endure Elemenrs:

1 - 1 target means that, even at higher levels, you have to spend all your lvl 2 slots (or higher) to protect the whole party.

2 - It doesn't protect from Extreme Cold at all. It makes the spell weaker than simply putting a coat on. At least a coat reduces from Extreme to Severe. Sure, you might say "But what if you have no access to winter clothing"? Well, with 10 min casting, and, in the case of a cleric, having to prepare it, it seems quite unlikely... a veeeery niche situation to say the least.

3 - Ice Golem has "Vulnerable to Endure Elements: An ice golem can be targeted with endure elements even if it’s not willing. If it is targeted, for 1 round it can’t use Breath Weapon or benefit from creeping cold, and its fist attack doesn’t deal cold damage.". What? It is very awkward to cast a 10min spell so that the Golem can't breath its weapon for 1 round.

Well, I believe the point 3 is a bug (unless I misread something), but even point 1 and 2 seems so weak for a lvl 2 spell. If at least it was multiple targets... I understand that for Heat it is a little better (there is no 4sp equipment that is better than the spell as far as I know) but still very weak unless you have four wands with you.

So, am I missing something? Did I misundertood the spell and its use?

[Nefreet]

Joe Junior wrote:

It doesn't protect from Extreme Cold at all.

Endure Elements wrote:

Heightened (5th) The target is protected from severe cold, severe heat, extreme cold, and extreme heat.

That being said, I don't see why you couldn't combine Winter Clothing and Endure Elements. The clothing reduces the damage from extreme cold to that of severe cold, and the spell can then protect you from severe cold.

[Garulo]

In terms of your specific questions:

Are you missing something in that it appears to be very weak as a L2 spell (putting aside the heightened versions)?

No, you do not appear to be missing very much that would make the spell more powerful. The only thing you are missing is the point that Nefreet makes in that it is possible to combine the two to make travel in the arctic trivial (which is situationally powerful)

I would hazard (sorry bad pun) a guess that the designers thought the PF1 spell (where an L1 spell protected you from extreme heat and cold) was too powerful and wanted to avoid having a low level spell which would negate entire encounter hazards such that after 3rd level most parties would never worry about heat/cold again. They wanted parties to make conscious, difficult choices as to how to address the environmental issues of mountains, deserts, tundras, etc I say 3rd level since that is when you would pick up a wand or use the slots

[Ferious Thune]

Nefreet wrote:

Joe Junior wrote:

It doesn't protect from Extreme Cold at all.

Endure Elements wrote:

Heightened (5th) The target is protected from severe cold, severe heat, extreme cold, and extreme heat.

That being said, I don't see why you couldn't combine Winter Clothing and Endure Elements. The clothing reduces the damage from extreme cold to that of severe cold, and the spell can then protect you from severe cold.

This is how it got ruled when I played a scenario with potential cold effects recently, although there was some question about whether or not it's meant to stack like that. I'd expect table variation, though this is really the only way to justify the spell over the 4sp Winter Clothing (well, in addition to). Unless, I guess, you really need to wear your Explorer's Outfit for a potency rune or something.

There is no hot weather version of the Winter Clothing at the moment, so the spell is one of the only options there as far as I can tell.

[Joe Junior]

Nefreet wrote:

Endure Elements wrote:

Heightened (5th) The target is protected from severe cold, severe heat, extreme cold, and extreme heat.

That being said, I don't see why you couldn't combine Winter Clothing and Endure Elements. The clothing reduces the damage from extreme cold to that of severe cold, and the spell can then protect you from severe cold.

The thing is that I found it too binary. The L2 Endure Elements completely negates Severe Cold and does nothing in Extreme Cold (unless combined with Winter Clothing, I guess...) while costing way more than Winter Clothing that costs 4sp one time and always works.

Garulo wrote:

I would hazard (sorry bad pun) a guess that the designers thought the PF1 spell (where an L1 spell protected you from extreme heat and cold) was too powerful and wanted to avoid having a low level spell which would negate entire encounter hazards such that after 3rd level most parties would never worry about heat/cold again.

And I applaud that. I just think it may have been too heavy handed of a "nerf". For a cleric with 2 L2 slots in a party of 5, Endure Elements, even when climbing a cold mountain, since he can't even protect the whole party, seems way less than ideal, which makes me sad! I like conditional spells being used in their intended conditions.

I guess the biggest issue is the number of targets, not the effect.

Well, it is what it is. Who knows, they might find a use for it (scrolls? even though it's quite expensive for their level).

What about point 3? Is it an error? And if it is where do I report it?

[Nefreet]

Joe Junior wrote:

For a cleric with 2 L2 slots in a party of 5, Endure Elements, even when climbing a cold mountain, since he can't even protect the whole party, seems way less than ideal, which makes me sad!

And here's where I think 1E just spoiled us. A low level Cleric shouldn't be able to protect the whole party. They have to use their resources strategically. Do they cast it on the Elf Wizard, or is the cold damage trivial compared to preparing for an encounter?

If you played PFS1, you're probably especially spoiled, because even 05 Int Barbarians carried a bandolier of useful wands. Some even had the UMD to use them!

Plus, now, a GM can easily hand out a quest beforehand to do-the-thing in exchange for a helpful-reward that's actually useful (like a case of scrolls).

As far as the last point goes, it could be a bug. Just report it in the product discussion thread. But, I believe there are 1 or 2 other spells out there with long casting times that are implied to be useful in combat (I know I've seen them discussed in this Forum but can't recall what they were). The only issue then is determining how many actions it should take to cast.

[HumbleGamer]

Joe Junior wrote:

I just think it may have been too heavy handed of a "nerf". For a cleric with 2 L2 slots in a party of 5, Endure Elements, even when climbing a cold mountain, since he can't even protect the whole party, seems way less than ideal, which makes me sad! I like conditional spells being used in their intended conditions.

Severe cold

Quote:

From -20º F to 12º F (-28º C to -11º C)
Every hour you take Minor cold damage (1d6/2d6)
After 4 hours you are fatigued

Consider that's there's really no need for the endure elements spell if the party is for example lvl 3 ( and the cleric just have a lvl 2 spell charged ). As other pointed out, winter clothes are the real deal here.

Not to say it seems quite improbable your low level party'd go on a suicide mission with a temperature of -12° or lower.

[shroudb]

in the campaign that i'm running, due to the difference in wording between Winter clothing and such effects, i did allow the clothes to stack with a winter heritage.

but yeah, in general, i don't think that a single level 2 spell is suppossed to make one of the harshest enviroments livable for a large group of people.

[Castilliano]

One of the major changes in PF2 is that many types of adventure that were trivialized in PF1 (and much earlier too) can now occur. Outdoor & environmental obstacles have become worthwhile again into higher levels than before, without having to go to other planes or contrived situations to make them happen. And once the parties hit teleport levels, there became a huge rift in challenge between parties that could teleport all their members and those who couldn't. So now TP is one level higher, Uncommon, and has difficulties bringing too many Animal Companions (or Familiars unless Paizo's correct that as one staff member mentioned they'd try to).
Endure Elements, one level higher than previous editions, thankfully still lasts all day, so not nerfed IMO. More like most of the spells which trivialize obstacles, it's been reset to a fit better within a 20-level arc of threats.

Cold can be staggered to suit the level of the party, with only the higher level ones being able to toss out a bunch of 5th level slots with no issues. This means polar conditions, which should be among the worst natural ones, remain a viable threat into the level where one faces Frost Worms, even approaching Wendigo as a boss. Those 5th level slots matter.

--

As for stacking Endure Elements w/ winter clothing, I'd have to think they do stack. If anything, the winter clothing would be an "item" bonus (even if not expressed numerically or denoted as such) while the spell would bestow a "status" bonus (ditto; plus like spells are).

Also, I think one could wear explorer's clothing under winter clothing.
I'm a bit surprised there isn't a 1 Bulk version of winter clothes. :)

[Ferious Thune]

Nefreet wrote:

Joe Junior wrote:

For a cleric with 2 L2 slots in a party of 5, Endure Elements, even when climbing a cold mountain, since he can't even protect the whole party, seems way less than ideal, which makes me sad!

And here's where I think 1E just spoiled us. A low level Cleric shouldn't be able to protect the whole party. They have to use their resources strategically. Do they cast it on the Elf Wizard, or is the cold damage trivial compared to preparing for an encounter?

If you played PFS1, you're probably especially spoiled, because even 05 Int Barbarians carried a bandolier of useful wands. Some even had the UMD to use them!

Plus, now, a GM can easily hand out a quest beforehand to do-the-thing in exchange for a helpful-reward that's actually useful (like a case of scrolls).

If this is what they are going for, then it seems like the Winter Clothing is the item that’s the mistake, since for 4sp and common access it does more than the 2nd level spell. That’s what stands out. The spell wouldn’t seem useless if it did more than the less than half a gp item that anyone can buy in just about any town.

[shroudb]

Ferious Thune wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Joe Junior wrote:

For a cleric with 2 L2 slots in a party of 5, Endure Elements, even when climbing a cold mountain, since he can't even protect the whole party, seems way less than ideal, which makes me sad!

And here's where I think 1E just spoiled us. A low level Cleric shouldn't be able to protect the whole party. They have to use their resources strategically. Do they cast it on the Elf Wizard, or is the cold damage trivial compared to preparing for an encounter?

If you played PFS1, you're probably especially spoiled, because even 05 Int Barbarians carried a bandolier of useful wands. Some even had the UMD to use them!

Plus, now, a GM can easily hand out a quest beforehand to do-the-thing in exchange for a helpful-reward that's actually useful (like a case of scrolls).

If this is what they are going for, then it seems like the Winter Clothing is the item that’s the mistake, since for 4sp and common access it does more than the 2nd level spell. That’s what stands out. The spell wouldn’t seem useless if it did more than the less than half a gp item that anyone can buy in just about any town.

magic isn't, and shouldn't be, an obvious answer to everything.

i don't see an issue with tailor-made mundane equipment for a circumstance being better than a low level spell for the same circumstance.

i mean, you can buy a weapon at any blacksmith shop in the game from level 1 for cheap, but what level do you even need to be to make one purely through magic?

low level it still has its uses (doesnt weight anything, doesnt cost anything, doesnt take time to make it, you dont need to have it bought from beforehands, covers both heat and cold, etc) so it's much more "versatile" in that sense, for the cost of being worse in overall protection. At a higher level it is a straight up upgrade compared to the mundane clothes.

[Garulo]

shroudb wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Joe Junior wrote:

For a cleric with 2 L2 slots in a party of 5, Endure Elements, even when climbing a cold mountain, since he can't even protect the whole party, seems way less than ideal, which makes me sad!

And here's where I think 1E just spoiled us. A low level Cleric shouldn't be able to protect the whole party. They have to use their resources strategically. Do they cast it on the Elf Wizard, or is the cold damage trivial compared to preparing for an encounter?

If you played PFS1, you're probably especially spoiled, because even 05 Int Barbarians carried a bandolier of useful wands. Some even had the UMD to use them!

Plus, now, a GM can easily hand out a quest beforehand to do-the-thing in exchange for a helpful-reward that's actually useful (like a case of scrolls).

If this is what they are going for, then it seems like the Winter Clothing is the item that’s the mistake, since for 4sp and common access it does more than the 2nd level spell. That’s what stands out. The spell wouldn’t seem useless if it did more than the less than half a gp item that anyone can buy in just about any town.

magic isn't, and shouldn't be, an obvious answer to everything.

i don't see an issue with tailor-made mundane equipment for a circumstance being better than a low level spell for the same circumstance.

i mean, you can buy a weapon at any blacksmith shop in the game from level 1 for cheap, but what level do you even need to be to make one purely through magic?

low level it still has its uses (doesnt weight anything, doesnt cost anything, doesnt take time to make it, you dont need to have it bought from beforehands, covers both heat and cold, etc) so it's much more "versatile" in that sense, for the cost of being worse in overall protection. At a higher level it is a straight up upgrade compared to the mundane clothes.

It is a Level 2 spell slot at its lowest so it is better evaluated not as to being an upgrade of equipment but does it offer enough to make it worthwhile to lose the spell slots (e.g. is it worth losing a Heal 2, Longstrider L2, etc). In PF2 there are no longer any dead slots really

[Joe Junior]

I think the thing that stood out that made me find it weird was that, for this particular adventure, just the Winter Clothing is better. But it does make sense, though it is a snowy mountain, it is not the Everest, and it seems that such spell is better suited for the Artic or for a Desert.

And as other pointed out it is the only option for heat.

I still think it should do SOMETHING for Extreme temperatures, even at low levels.

[Kelseus]

Cold Weather cloths are something you likely purchase in advance, as you are preparing for going to a cold environment (climb mountain, Irrisen, it is winter time etc.). Endure elements is a spell you can pull out (good scroll option) when you need it unexpectedly (magically transported, white dragon lair, supernaturally cold area, etc.).

They are for different things, but as others have pointed out, a single second level spell shouldn't negate all possible cold environmental hazards ALL DAY.

Extreme Cold, below -21 degrees or lower, is average temperature in the arctic circle or at the peak of Mount Everest in the WINTER. So unless you are crossing the Crown of the World in the winter or climbing the largest mountain in all of Golarion, you shouldn't have to deal with extreme cold.

[Ferious Thune]

Winter Clothing has the same bulk as a scroll of endure elements. Just carry an extra set of clothes for 11.6 gp cheaper. My point above was that if cold weather is supposed to be a challenge and something that you need to devote a resource like one or multiple spell slots towards, then creating a 4 sp item that overcomes the severe condition and lessens the extreme condition (which would take a 5th level spell) was probably the thing that is out of line. The main advantage that endure elements has right now is being able to protect against severe heat. If we never get warm weather clothing comparable to winter clothing, that will be a pretty good indicator that winter clothing does too much for the cost.

So I hope GMs go with the more lenient interpretation that endure elements stacks with winter clothing, as that at least lets your 2nd level spell slot/scroll/wand do something, even if extreme conditions are going to be rare.

Honestly, the clothing should probably have just provided resistance to the damage from severe or extreme, but I can also understand how having to track and roll all of that could get to be tedious.

[Ferious Thune]

Ok, I think I found the difference. Winter Clothing protects you from the damage from severe cold and lowers the damage from extreme to be that of severe. It does not appear to prevent you from becoming fatigued more quickly during overland travel. So even with winter clothing, that time reduces to 4 hours for severe or extreme.

Endure elements protects you from the temperature and does not specify that is only the damage. So you would not become fatigued faster. That’s something.