Creatures with Grab (Ex) and Their Options

[RAWmonger]

Universal Monster Rules entry for the Grab (Ex) ability states "The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold."

We typically steer away from creatures with grab, since it can quickly become.... inconvenient... but I had a question regarding this ability. Is the latter part of this quote referencing "a successful hold" regarding when the creature takes a -20 on the check and succeeds in grappling the foe with *only* that body part, or does it mean in either way the creature chose to make the grapple check and succeeds? If it's just with the one body part, then I assume the next sentence means that that one body part does automatic damage, and every other action the creature has plays out normally.

If it's referring to either way, how do you interpret the next sentence regarding automatic damage? Does that mean that the creature controlling the grapple can only do damage, and not choose to move or pin, or does it mean that the damage is automatic after the check, and then the grappling creature can then choose between damage/move/pin?

I think those extra sentences refer to *only* taking the -20 check and succeeding on grappling with only that body part, and that the phrase "if it chooses to do the latter" continues through the rest of the entry, but I may be wrong. Just looking for clarification before some grabby creatures come into play.

[*Thelith]

Just the body part maintaining the hold.
But it's automatic damage, this doesn't stop that body part from attempting to pin also.

[RAWmonger]

*Thelith wrote:

Just the body part maintaining the hold.

But it's automatic damage, this doesn't stop that body part from attempting to pin also.

Okay so follow up question. A creature with Grab hits his first attack with the Grab ability, and also succeeds on his grapple check to grapple the foe normally, but also has 1-3 other attacks. That creature's turn is now over, right? The controller of the grapple doesn't get the option to full attack normally, only to move, pin, or attack once.

Or do creatures with grab go by a different rule set and are allowed to finish their first turn of attacks?

Essentially my question is should sometimes the creature with grab not use his grab ability on his first attack, especially if it's an intelligent creature and knows it can be more effective by bypassing the grab ability until one of its later attacks, assuming it hits again. Or should you play it out that the grab ability should effectively always be utilized, even if it's not optimal?

Like, wild octopus should almost always be attempting to utilize grab every hit, because that's what they do... but say a Druid wild shaped into a Bear.... should he bypass Grab on his first attack(s) if it would cancel the rest of his full attack?

[Name Violation]

RAWmonger wrote:

*Thelith wrote:

Just the body part maintaining the hold.

But it's automatic damage, this doesn't stop that body part from attempting to pin also.

Okay so follow up question. A creature with Grab hits his first attack with the Grab ability, and also succeeds on his grapple check to grapple the foe normally, but also has 1-3 other attacks. That creature's turn is now over, right? The controller of the grapple doesn't get the option to full attack normally, only to move, pin, or attack once.

Or do creatures with grab go by a different rule set and are allowed to finish their first turn of attacks?

Essentially my question is should sometimes the creature with grab not use his grab ability on his first attack, especially if it's an intelligent creature and knows it can be more effective by bypassing the grab ability until one of its later attacks, assuming it hits again. Or should you play it out that the grab ability should effectively always be utilized, even if it's not optimal?

Like, wild octopus should almost always be attempting to utilize grab every hit, because that's what they do... but say a Druid wild shaped into a Bear.... should he bypass Grab on his first attack(s) if it would cancel the rest of his full attack?

you can also grab and release IIRC

so attack #1 with grab, constrict, release. attack #2 with grab, constrict, release, continue

[*Thelith]

He could release, and continue attacking, or he could continue attacking with other limbs.
If a monster has 3 slam attacks with the optional grab ability that monster is likely swinging with two arms or tentacles or whatever, not just ONE limb.

And he is perfectly capable of swinging those limbs at the creature he has grabbed.

[Chell Raighn]

RAWmonger wrote:

*Thelith wrote:

Just the body part maintaining the hold.

But it's automatic damage, this doesn't stop that body part from attempting to pin also.

Okay so follow up question. A creature with Grab hits his first attack with the Grab ability, and also succeeds on his grapple check to grapple the foe normally, but also has 1-3 other attacks. That creature's turn is now over, right? The controller of the grapple doesn't get the option to full attack normally, only to move, pin, or attack once.

Or do creatures with grab go by a different rule set and are allowed to finish their first turn of attacks?

I have the strange feeling that creatures with grab use a different set of rules for grapple... though what exactly I can’t be certain... but standard grapple rules simply don’t function properly with most creatures that have grab. Even less so with creatures that not only have grab but also have rake. A creature with rake gets two extra claw attacks when it full attacks a creature that it has in a grapple... but if they must perform a grapple check to maintain as a standard action, then they would only get the automatic damage from their attack that initiated the grapple... and the rules for grab say nothing about using a different action type to hold, just that hold let’s them ignore the grappled condition themselves... standard grapple rules and even the explicitly spelled out rules for grab simply don’t work with rake... so something is missing in the rules...

Grapple rules are a complete mess from start to finish.

[Diego Rossi]

Chell Raighn wrote:

RAWmonger wrote:

*Thelith wrote:

Just the body part maintaining the hold.

But it's automatic damage, this doesn't stop that body part from attempting to pin also.

Okay so follow up question. A creature with Grab hits his first attack with the Grab ability, and also succeeds on his grapple check to grapple the foe normally, but also has 1-3 other attacks. That creature's turn is now over, right? The controller of the grapple doesn't get the option to full attack normally, only to move, pin, or attack once.

Or do creatures with grab go by a different rule set and are allowed to finish their first turn of attacks?

I have the strange feeling that creatures with grab use a different set of rules for grapple... though what exactly I can’t be certain... but standard grapple rules simply don’t function properly with most creatures that have grab. Even less so with creatures that not only have grab but also have rake. A creature with rake gets two extra claw attacks when it full attacks a creature that it has in a grapple... but if they must perform a grapple check to maintain as a standard action, then they would only get the automatic damage from their attack that initiated the grapple... and the rules for grab say nothing about using a different action type to hold, just that hold let’s them ignore the grappled condition themselves... standard grapple rules and even the explicitly spelled out rules for grab simply don’t work with rake... so something is missing in the rules...

Grapple rules are a complete mess from start to finish.

To reply both to RAWmonger and Chell Raigh

Making a grapple check as a free action doesn't stop a full attack.
What stops a full attack is making a standard action to maintain the grapple, so you can attack, make the free grab attempt and continue the full attack regardless of your success or failure.

Rake is another matter, it depends if you are using pounce+rake or maintain a grapple+rake.

When maintaining a grapple the creature gets 2 free rake attacks. They are free actions and don't depend on anything besides successfully maintaining the grapple. The rules are under Rake, not under the grappling rules.

When pouncing you active Rake by the action of pouncing, you don't need to grapple. The rules are under Pounce.

So yes, the monsters have special rules for grappling that normally don't apply to the player characters. The rules exist but are dispersed in the different special abilities, not concentrated under a single heading of the rules.