| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's look clear but i'm actually not sure of the result :
RAW :
"Incorporeal Bloodrager (Su)
At 16th level, once per day you can choose to become incorporeal. You take only half damage from magic corporeal sources, and you take no damage from non-magic weapons and objects. Your attacks deal damage as normal due to your ghost strike bloodrage power."
What disturbe me a lot is "Your attacks deal damage as normal due to your ghost strike bloodrage power", what does that mean ?
1. It's said we are incorporeal so i suppose that you gain incorporeal capacity (no physycal body, you can "fly" at your move, you got not armor AC and Nat, and your charimsa as deflexion as, ignore armore ac and nat on attacks....). that the first question, is it right ??
2. If we are incoporeal, we lose our STR, and we have no bonus damage possibility (except energie damage, arcane strike etc...). We touch on the Dex but didn't apply Dex on damage??
3. if we touch on the DEX, and we ignore the armor AC and Nat except force energy, so it's like a touch attack ??
4. if 1/2/3 are wrong and we keep our STR, classical damage, normal way to attack and def, that mean we aren't incorporeal. So why they give us ghost touch and said we become incorporeal ?? we didn't need ghost touch if we are corporeal.
I don't get it and i don't get how i can build a good UD bloodrager
|
The ghost strike bloodrage power says your melee attacks are treated as if using a Ghost Touch weapon.
The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.
My interpretation is that an incorporeal creature using a ghost touch weapon (including your bloodrager) would make normal attacks against a corporeal opponent - using strength to hit normal AC with strength to damage. You'd still get the defensive benefits of the incorporeal type as well as flight and the ability to pass through solid objects.
Alternatively, you would make touch attacks and would apply your Dex to hit but would simply lose Str to damage. This seems odd, though, given that bloodrage increases your strength.
Thanks Weirdo for your help.
My interpretation is that an incorporeal creature using a ghost touch weapon (including your bloodrager) would make normal attacks against a corporeal opponent - using strength to hit normal AC with strength to damage. You'd still get the defensive benefits of the incorporeal type as well as flight and the ability to pass through solid objects.Ok why not that answer to the
Your attacks deal damage as normal due to your ghost strike bloodrage power.I'm agree with you, this seems odd though that bloodrage incraeses the Strength, but on other side on the RAW, incoporeal said:
"Incorporeal (Ex)
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
Format: incorporeal; Location: Defensive Abilities."
So we shouldn't use Strenght normaly.
Otherwise, if we use Strengh to attack and hit, i'm not sur we could use the Dex on touch attack of the incoporeal don't you think ? It's quite unclear :/.
|
|
Specific rules in the bloodline or the ghost touch ability can overrule the general rules for incorporeal creatures.
My only uncertainty is whether "your attacks deal damage as normal" means that you make your attacks normally in general, or whether it just means that your attacks are capable of damaging a corporeal foe. The former makes more sense to me given (1) the bloodrager's class features and (2) the fact that nothing would normally prevent an incorporeal creature from damaging a corporeal foe so you shouldn't need special permission to do so.
Specific rules in the bloodline or the ghost touch ability can overrule the general rules for incorporeal creatures.
My only uncertainty is whether "your attacks deal damage as normal" means that you make your attacks normally in general, or whether it just means that your attacks are capable of damaging a corporeal foe. The former makes more sense to me given (1) the bloodrager's class features and (2) the fact that nothing would normally prevent an incorporeal creature from damaging a corporeal foe so you shouldn't need special permission to do so.
Yeah isn't clear at all. I agree with you that rules in bloodline or the ghost touch ability can overule the general rules of incorporeal.
But in this case, normal rules of ghost touch and incorporeal creatures work on this way. An incoporeal creature can hit corporeal creatures with a weapon if that weapon had the ghost touch enhancement. But in normal Rules, that is done on the DEX for the attack and no damage modifiers (STR or DEX i mean). And they are not talking about it on the bloodline rules, not mentioning it for dex or str.Overall like you said already, the bloodrage give strengh. So it's totaly odd to cancel the essence of the rage for a 1 day lvl 16 porwer, that why i'm a bit lost.
Actually my GM is thinking about using Dex and not STR on this case, cause no existing creatures with incorporeal had a STR score on pathfinder. But he'snt sur too....
If someone know an incorporeal creature with a STR score or if you are sur of he meaning
Your attacks deal damage as normal due to your ghost strike
Let me know please !!! i need more argument to convince him (and myself too lol) :)
Actually a ghost can carry a ghost touch weapon, and can go through the wall with it, so we can considerate the weapon is incorporeal too and had no weight. Isn't clear too, but i can agree with you.
RAW : A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.
But ok, thanks for your confirmation @weirdo and @ toastedamphibian. That's meaning, except for the part of my physicals attacks, i'm considerate as a classical incorporeal creature for all purpose, that it ?
That's my last question :).
|
I think this is another case of the designer not making sure the existing rules lined up with their vision. I'm certain the Bloodrager was meant to keep their Strength and all its bonuses.
Like a thread of mine, this is something else we could use a developer's attention on. The incorporeality rules are accidentally messing with a lot of cool ideas.
yeah ^^, but it's all good, everyone sound to go on the same way.
Thanks for your topic, i'll read it :).
An other interesting link :
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t0l4?Incorporeality-and-Ghost-Touch