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The gaseous form spell clearly states "if [the subject] has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect." What it is NOT clear on is whether a gaseous individual may use such abilities after assuming gaseous form. Can they?
I ask this in particular as it pertains to the Formless Adept Psychic Archetype, which was clearly intended to be able to use such powers in its various nebulous states.
I don't see why not.
The gaseous form spell also says you can't attack. The spectral hand spell would work around that but otherwise you'd need a house rule to attack in gaseous form. Whatever the intent was it wasn't written into the formless adept's class ablities.
The gaseous form spell also says you can't attack. The spectral hand spell would work around that but otherwise you'd need a house rule to attack in gaseous form. Whatever the intent was it wasn't written into the formless adept's class ablities.
Pretty sure it meant "with natural attacks or weapons." A eschewed/silent/stilled touch spell would be totally permissible if you ask me.
A gaseous formed kineticist would also be capable of making blasts still.
Pretty sure it meant "with natural attacks or weapons." A eschewed/silent/stilled touch spell would be totally permissible if you ask me.
It can't attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.
Can you explain why you think that or how you came to that conclusion, RD ? I read this as "attack spells are right out" but certain spells like perhaps "Open-Close" could be used, if prepared with Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials could be used
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Can you explain why you think that or how you came to that conclusion, RD ? I read this as "attack spells are right out" but certain spells like perhaps "Open-Close" could be used, if prepared with Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials could be used
Because you're not incorporeal. You're still physically present. As such, you can still touch things (though your ability to manipulate/move things will certainly be impeded). Ever feel the morning mist on your skin? How about cloying smog/smoke? A breeze? Gaseous doesn't mean incorporeal/absent. You can clearly still touch and be touched.
Swinging a gaseous sword or punch or claw at someone won't have any meaningful effect, obviously, since you don't have any (meaningful) amount of mass. However, if you can somehow manage to cast shocking grasp, your electrically charged misty hand can still brush up against someone and is most certainly dangerous. You could just as easily launch a fireball with the right feats/abilities.
Gaseous form psychic casters have the potential to be pretty incredible for this very reason.
A gaseous formed kineticist would also be capable of making blasts still.As I recall the blasts require you to have a free appendage to use them.
A gaseous appendage is still an appendage. It never left. You're still recognizably you, just a gaseous version of you.
Touch spells would not work. You have no appendage to touch with, and the fact that it makes you get rid of any active touch spells support that.
A touch spell is also an attack, and you can't attack per the spell. You can cast the spell with the right metamagic feats, but you won't be able to touch anyone so it would be pointless.
I agree that RAW you can't do a touch attack when in Gaseous Form. I also think that the designer of the Formless Adept Psychic archetype didn't know that, given that you get access to several touch spells only when you are in that form. (Well, and your Blur form, but I don't think he meant for only some of your spells to be useable in one of the two forms available to you for most of the game.) Allowing it in this particular circumstance seems a reasonable house rule.
I'm still trying to figure out why Gaseous Form is a spell you get as a bonus spell from this discipline. (Yes, I know you can get more duration out of it, but c'mon.)
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It's an interesting archetype. The main value I see for it is getting out of grapples. Otherwise, it seems largely pointless.
Assume you are always maxing INT, because that is your prime stat. Lets say you really try hard to get CHA as well, and start with a 16 CHA.
BY 13th level, when you just barely get gaseous body for minutes a level, you can use the formless adept gaseous body for 3+3=6 minutes a day.
By contrast, at level 13, you could just cast the gaseous form spell and have it last for 2x13=26 minutes per day.
Before level 13, it is even worse. At level 12, you can use the SU ability for 6 rounds per day, but if you just cast the spell it would be 24 minutes a day.
So the only real advantage of it is being able to use it as an SU ability to escape a grapple. Pretty nice, but I am kind of wondering if you might just as well buy some boots of escape (or even 2 pairs if you are really worried about it) and just choose a psychic discipline that would have more of a benefit for you.
Thank you for explaining your reasoning, RD.
It's an interesting archetype. The main value I see for it is getting out of grapples. Otherwise, it seems largely pointless.
Assume you are always maxing INT, because that is your prime stat. Lets say you really try hard to get CHA as well, and start with a 16 CHA.
BY 13th level, when you just barely get gaseous body for minutes a level, you can use the formless adept gaseous body for 3+3=6 minutes a day.
By contrast, at level 13, you could just cast the gaseous form spell and have it last for 2x13=26 minutes per day.
Before level 13, it is even worse. At level 12, you can use the SU ability for 6 rounds per day, but if you just cast the spell it would be 24 minutes a day.
So the only real advantage of it is being able to use it as an SU ability to escape a grapple. Pretty nice, but I am kind of wondering if you might just as well buy some boots of escape (or even 2 pairs if you are really worried about it) and just choose a psychic discipline that would have more of a benefit for you.
It's good for getting twice as many discipline spells and they aren't bad. And Blur is just fine for defensive use especially after level 5.
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I agree that RAW you can't do a touch attack when in Gaseous Form. I also think that the designer of the Formless Adept Psychic archetype didn't know that, given that you get access to several touch spells only when you are in that form. (Well, and your Blur form, but I don't think he meant for only some of your spells to be useable in one of the two forms available to you for most of the game.) Allowing it in this particular circumstance seems a reasonable house rule.
I'm still hoping a developer could swing by and address this directly! :)
If you're gaseous, you don't have limbs to gesture, nor a mouth to speak, nor do you have access to material components. That's some significant hampering there.
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If you're gaseous, you don't have limbs to gesture, nor a mouth to speak, nor do you have access to material components. That's some significant hampering there.
It says "[t]he subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent" - it does NOT say "you turn into a puffy, amorphous cloud" despite the graphic from Baldur's Gate 2. Beyond that, none of those things (with the exception of costly material components) matter to a Psychic anyways.
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I'd like to see where the formless spell phrenic amplification appears. Or is that the "Formless Spell" feature of the archetype?
There is nothing to stop you casting any spell you want (either with the archetype or without). So long as you can cast them stilled, silent and without material components.
I don't see an issue with your casting a stilled touch spell. But with the poor movement rate of a gaseous form, you are only ever likely to get someone once with it :-)
I've found that gaseous form amounts to a death sentence for the guy who turns gaseous... unless there is a tiny hidey-hole right next to him. Why?
- He can't get away, since his speed is 10'/turn;
- he loses all armor protection, and DR 10/magic doesn't usually help since any adventurer worth his salt has magic weapons by 3rd or 4th level at the latest; and
- he can't attack.
IMHO there really ought to be a stipulation similar to swarms, where weapons, even magical ones, simply can't inflict damage. But gaseous is not the same as incorporeal.
At the end of the day, gaseous form sucks for defense, and is only situationally useful for getting past some obstacles.
This said, if somebody can cast spells without verbal, somatic or material components, it should work, even touch spells. Touch 'em with your mist! You might require them to share their space with their target, though.
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Again, I'm asking this because of a Pathfinder Society character of mine, so if there's anyone out there who can give an official ruling/errata or something, I'd be grateful.
Also, everyone's been talking about gaseous form, but what about casting such spells while incorporeal? Any problem with that? Gods know inherently incorporeal creatures love their nasty touch attacks....
He can't get away, since his speed is 10'/turn;
Actually, it's a fly speed of 10 feet, which means he can fly at 20 feet/turn with a double move action, or even 40 feet with a run action.
Still slow as molasses, but faster than the previously indicated 10 feet per turn.