Alchemy seems pretty lackluster

[siegfriedliner]

So besides from the alchemist class which is another issue most alchemical items are pretty underwhelming especially at the higher end of play.

If you compare a level 3 Scroll of lightning bolt (4d12 lightning damage in a 100ft line) for 30 gold vs a level 17 Alchemist fire (You gain a +3 item bonus to attack rolls. The bomb deals 4d8 fire damage, 4 persistent fire damage, and 4 fire splash damage) for 2500 gold its, hard to argue one is better than the other with the action cost disparity.

Its seems weird that a level 17 item is so underwhelming in its effect.

[The Raven Black]

My PFS martial characters would love to be able to cast from scrolls. Really.

[HumbleGamer]

Just sell them and go for scrolls instead ( eventually, making a good use of trick magic item which is almost for free).

[Cyouni]

Trick Magic Item is definitely not for free in action cost.

So you Interact to draw a scroll, Trick Magic Item...and then whoops you're out of actions to use it. So you have to have the scroll you want in hand the turn before, and be in the right place...and then the DC is, at best, expert, if you're legendary in the relevant skill.

[RPGnoremac]

The comparison is super strange. I also feel Alchemist bombs are mostly balanced around the Alchemist class feats like calculated splash + expanded splash.

Also there are just a lot of benefits of bombs over scolls.

Scrolls take more action (3 unless for some reason your character is always carrying around a scroll) while a bomb takes 1 action since you will either have quick bomber or quick draw if you are planning on throwing bombs regularly.

I am not saying Alchemist are super strong but in general there are a lot of feats that makes bombs better. Also I am not sure most Alchemy items are supposed to be a "good value" for buying since pretty much the characters that use them get the items for free.

[HumbleGamer]

Cyouni wrote:

Trick Magic Item is definitely not for free in action cost.

So you Interact to draw a scroll, Trick Magic Item...and then whoops you're out of actions to use it. So you have to have the scroll you want in hand the turn before, and be in the right place...and then the DC is, at best, expert, if you're legendary in the relevant skill.

Almost for free in terms of requirements, no in terms of action management.

Not to say that you are allowed to choose among 3 stats for your main one ( for example, an alchemist might use int as his primary stats to cast whatever scroll he wants, while he might have had low char or wis ), so it's not that bad as you tried to show.

To sum up:

- 1 skill feat and trained proficiency in the specific knowledge ( depends the tradition )
- 1 stats of your choice among 3 ( and given how this 2e works, you will probably have at least 18 or more in that specific stat )

Not to say that by taking a dedication you might achieve expert by lvl 12 and master by lvl 18, that it's not only lategame but also so much demanding in terms of investements ( not only that skill at legendary rank, as for trick magic items, but also have to waste 4 class feats out of 10/11 ). Y

But it's a choice, indeed.
Just wanted to point out that it's far than being the "more efficient" one, considering its requirements and the bonuses:

- 4 class feats ( and tied to a specific attribute )
- Legendary knowledge proficiency

for

- Higher proficiency bonus from lvl 12-14 and lvl 18-20. If he's already a spellcaster, the gap will be lower or even not present if the casting spell of the dedication would be way lower than the spellcaster main attribute.
- 1 Less action required to cast the spell.

[SuperBidi]

siegfriedliner wrote:

So besides from the alchemist class which is another issue most alchemical items are pretty underwhelming especially at the higher end of play.

Most Alchemical Items are balanced around the Alchemist's access to them.

Still, they are quite useful as everyone can use them unlike scrolls. And some of them are not very expensive, like Elixirs of Darkvision.

For consumables, and actually every magic item, you need to search for the gems. You can't consider all the items of a specific level to be equal.

[Watery Soup]

Do people just read other threads about alchemists and then start new threads with every complaint?

Sheesh, someone should just start The Epic Alchemist Argument Thread so that the same arguments aren't getting repeated.

[SuperBidi]

I think you misunderstood the thread. Siegried speaks about Alchemical Items, outside the Alchemist class. Their comparison with other consumable of the same level.

[Luke Styer]

I don’t see why anyone would ever spend 2,500 gp on an alchemist’s fire. If the PCs found one as a drop, it doesn’t even make sense that anyone would buy it for half price. The buyer obviously couldn’t sell it at retail, so the only reason to buy would be to use it, and one could get better fire damage MUCH cheaper.

The notion of crafting them only serves to further strain the already strained crafting rules.

I would assume that the vast majority of high level bombs exist only as infused items.