One of the issues I see with fighters is that their main mechanic for doing extra damage is linked to proficiency, and as such is limited to a particular weapon group. That's not something other classes do in general, so I am considering giving fighters an option for broadening their weapon skills. The two options I am considering are:
1. Two feats: one at 6th level that lets them apply Fighter Weapon Mastery (and later Weapon Legend) to an additional weapon group, and another at 8th or 10th that expands it to all weapons (still with the inherently lower proficiency with advanced weapons).
2. Just one feat at 6th level that expands Fighter Weapon Mastery and Weapon Legend to all weapons.
In both cases there would be some limitation that prevents you from using multi-class shenanigans to grab the feats. Adding Fighter Weapon Mastery as a prerequisite ought to do the trick.
I'm aware that proficiency increases are generally not something you get from feats, but given that these feats don't increase your highest proficiencies and only broaden others to catch up I feel they ought to be OK. I'm just not sure if applying fighter proficiencies to all weapons should have an intermediate step or not.
The Archer, Martial Artist, and Mauler dedications all do this.
The main, awkward question is what to do with those feats when the Fighter becomes legendary in all weapons at Lv 19.
In the meantime, though, who gives a heck? The restriction isn't much of a restriction since you generally aren't incentivized to use a variety of weapons anyway. I think one feat that only extends better proficiency to all weapons is fine, but you can make it two if you're feeling antsy about balance.
Alfa/Polaris wrote: The main, awkward question is what to do with those feats when the Fighter becomes legendary in all weapons at Lv 19. Well, at that point you'd probably retrain it. It wouldn't be the first time a feat got made obsolete by advancing (I'm looking at Canny Acumen, here).
Quote: In the meantime, though, who gives a heck? The restriction isn't much of a restriction since you generally aren't incentivized to use a variety of weapons anyway. I think one feat that only extends better proficiency to all weapons is fine, but you can make it two if you're feeling antsy about balance. The main use-cases I see are:
1. Characters who want to be able to adapt to cool loot they find instead of transferring runes over. For example, if I'm a dwarf specializing in axes and I find a dwarven thrower, that's going to be a bit of a let-down.
2. Characters who want to switch between ranged and melee without being penalized, and without locking themselves into the Archer archetype (archertype?).
3. Dual-wielders who want to use weapons from different weapon groups.
4. Characters who want to use a Shifting weapon in order to adapt to different situations.
So it's not something I see every fighter taking, but I definitely see some possible characters who'd want it.
Also, this made me realize that Pathfinder 2 does not yet have stats for the rod of lordly might, which is a shame.
Spending a feat to broaden your weapon selection isn't entirely unprecedented. Both Barbarians and Swashbucklers have feats that allow them to use their core mechanic with throwing weapons.
The feat you propose is broader than that, but also eats a higher level feat slot, so it seems fine.
I know you already mentioned Canny Acumen, but imo that's not a great precedent, personally I don't like the idea of feats that are designed to be retrained out of, but that's just me.
The suggested level 6 prerequisite is just because fighters get Master in one weapon group at 5, so 6 would be the earliest time when it'd be relevant.
The only natural expansion I can think of when the fighter gets legendary proficiency in all weapons at 19th would be to go to advanced weapons instead, and I don't think that's a good idea. I'd be more likely to include something about auto-replacement.
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I dislike this because in my opinion, what makes the Fighter "balanced" is the fact that they specialize in one weapon. That is a very deliberate restriction that is only lifted by level 19, and without it it becomes sort of pointless to pick any other martial class to play. The fighters "shtick" is "I specialize in one weapon group, and in that I am supreme and crit a lot." The Barbarian for example trades that level of specialization for generally being good with any non-agile weapon and dealing buckets of damage (but critting less and being crit more), the Ranger has their thing etc etc.
It's about balance, yes, but also about not erasing other classes from the game by accident.
Do I think it will break your game? Absolutely not. Not at the slightest. But I do think it undermines some goals that the system establishes.
SandersonTavares wrote:
It's about balance, yes, but also about not erasing other classes from the game by accident.
This seems like a huge overstatement. Nothing about a fighter being able to use both a Shortsword and a Mace "erases" Barbarians.
And frankly, as you pointed out, this isn't even unique to fighters. Every martial class, with the exception of the Ranger, has some sort of limitation on the types of weapons they can effectively use.
The nature of those limitations vary, but Barbarians being limited to non-agile melee weapons is similar to Fighters being limited to Swords in terms of their practical effects (both lose power when using Ranged weapons and that's pretty much it).
And Barbarians having Raging Thrower or Swashbuckler's having Flying Blade certainly doesn't erode anyone else's identity.
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SandersonTavares wrote: I dislike this because in my opinion, what makes the Fighter "balanced" is the fact that they specialize in one weapon. That is a very deliberate restriction that is only lifted by level 19, and without it it becomes sort of pointless to pick any other martial class to play. The fighters "shtick" is "I specialize in one weapon group, and in that I am supreme and crit a lot." The Barbarian for example trades that level of specialization for generally being good with any non-agile weapon and dealing buckets of damage (but critting less and being crit more), the Ranger has their thing etc etc.
It's about balance, yes, but also about not erasing other classes from the game by accident.
Do I think it will break your game? Absolutely not. Not at the slightest. But I do think it undermines some goals that the system establishes.
Hmm. I haven't really seen fighters that way. The way I see it is that most martial classes have some mechanic for boosting damage above the default you get from just Strikes:
Barbarians get Rage.
Rangers in particular can be very flexible. Their Hunter's Edges are very generic, and there are some strong feat paths that don't rely on weapon selection.
Monks get Flurry of Blows.
Rogues get Sneak Attack.
Fighters don't get one of those, but their "additional damage" mechanic is that they hit more often (and, to some degree, a small bonus from weapon specialization). I guess you could count Attack of Opportunity, but that relies on your opponents doing dumb stuff. I see it more as a threat mechanic than a damage mechanic.
In addition, fighters already come with built-in flexibility in the form of the Combat Flexibility ability. This indicates that fighters ought to be able to adapt to different circumstances, and using a wide variety of weapons helps with that.
Reckless wrote: The Archer, Martial Artist, and Mauler dedications all do this. Not to mention Unarmed Attack which also goes up. Some Weapon Groups are quite broad. Then there are the ancestry feats than do similar things with an interesting selection of weapons. Dwarven/Elven/Hobgoblin/Gnome Weapon Familiarity/Expertise etc etc. Level 13 though.
It is easily possible to have several good options in the one group. Its very easy to get a few extra weapons. Then there are weapons like bastard sword which are good across multiple styles.
Yes you can limit yourself to one weapon. But I'm not really seeing that the problem you are trying to fix is hard to work around.
Staffan Johansson wrote:
The main use-cases I see are:
3. Dual-wielders who want to use weapons from different weapon groups.
4. Characters who want to use a Shifting weapon in order to adapt to different situations.
So it's not something I see every fighter taking, but I definitely see some possible characters who'd want it.
This is a fair point. But on the scale of things. I think Fighters can cope with this one small disadvantage till level 13.
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