When precisely do you resolve the effects of per round poison? I've looked all through the books and read several discussions on these forums, but what I'm seeing are rules that both indicate the answer is (A) at the same point in initiative as the poison was initiated (generally on the poisoner's turn), and that the answer is (B) at the end of the victim's turn, per the normal affliction rules. Obviously, that's contradictory. Does anyone know which is intended to be the right and true intent?
If it is B, then WHEN at the end of the victim's turn does it take place? My players have argued the point with me while their character was dying 3 and poisoned and we are all very keen to know where that saving throw falls relative to Recovery checks, ending spell effects (such as plant form, which grants poison resistance), and similar "end-of-your-turn" effects.
If it is A, why is it inconsistent with other afflictions?
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Does this answer the question ?
The most relevant RAW for this seems to be the passage I quoted before (same bolding for emphasis).
I cannot speak for how definitive people find this. It appears for all intents and purposes you suffer poison damage at the end of your turn. It doesn't seem to matter that it is not technically persistent damage because both afflictions and persistent damage happen at the same time. It seems otherwise clear that the poison save and damage normally always happens at the end of the afflicted creature's turn, without regard for initiative counts. I don't know what happens if the character delays, but I feel like the Delay activity indicated something about suffering relevant afflictions/persistent damage at the moment of delaying.Step 3: End Your Turn
Take the following steps in any order you choose.
*End any effects that last until the end of your turn. For example, spells with a sustained duration end at the end of your turn unless you used the Sustain a Spell action during your turn to extend them. Some effects caused by enemies might also last through a certain number of your turns, and you decrease the remaining duration by 1 during this step, ending the effect if its duration is reduced to 0.
*If you have a persistent damage condition, you take the damage at this point. After you take the damage, you can attempt the flat check to end the persistent damage. You then attempt any saving throws for ongoing afflictions. Many other conditions change at the end of your turn, such as the frightened condition decreasing in severity. These take place after you’ve taken any persistent damage, attempted flat checks to end the persistent damage, and attempted saves against any afflictions.
*You can use 1 free action or reaction with a trigger of “Your turn ends” or something similar.
*Resolve anything else specified to happen at the end of your turn.
Thanks, but I was aware of that passage prior to posting, so no, it's not enough (for me).
Even if it wasn't contradicted by other parts of the rules, it still wouldn't answer my other questions on order of operations.
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it still wouldn't answer my other questions on order of operations.
Isn't that covered by:
Take the following steps in any order you choose.
?
but what I'm seeing are rules that both indicate the answer is (A) at the same point in initiative as the poison was initiated (generally on the poisoner's turn), and that the answer is (B) at the end of the victim's turn,
Can you provide an example of A? I can see plently of examples for B
EG something like Wyvern Sting
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My players have argued the point with me while their character was dying 3 and poisoned and we are all very keen to know where that saving throw falls relative to Recovery checks, ending spell effects (such as plant form, which grants poison resistance), and similar "end-of-your-turn" effects.
Recovery Checks happen at the START of your turn. Afflictions happen at the END of your turn. There should be no confusion here. You roll a recovery check, then roll the poison save after. The rules are very clear on this.
it still wouldn't answer my other questions on order of operations.Isn't that covered by:
Take the following steps in any order you choose.?
Where is that stated? EDIT: Never mind. Clearly quoted above.
but what I'm seeing are rules that both indicate the answer is (A) at the same point in initiative as the poison was initiated (generally on the poisoner's turn), and that the answer is (B) at the end of the victim's turn,Can you provide an example of A? I can see plently of examples for B
EG something like Wyvern Sting
There was a debate in a recent thread (within the last 3-4 days) in which people were citing rules for both A and B. Both sides were convincing and seemed to be at a stale mate. I don't recall where that thread was offhand though. (I read dozens of threads every day.)
Can you provide an example of AThere are none.
Yes there are. I've seen them.
My players have argued the point with me while their character was dying 3 and poisoned and we are all very keen to know where that saving throw falls relative to Recovery checks, ending spell effects (such as plant form, which grants poison resistance), and similar "end-of-your-turn" effects.Recovery Checks happen at the START of your turn. Afflictions happen at the END of your turn. There should be no confusion here. You roll a recovery check, then roll the poison save after. The rules are very clear on this.
Oh. Well that's good to know! :P
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*If you have a persistent damage condition, you take the damage at this point. After you take the damage, you can attempt the flat check to end the persistent damage. You then attempt any saving throws for ongoing afflictions. Many other conditions change at the end of your turn, such as the frightened condition decreasing in severity. These take place after you’ve taken any persistent damage, attempted flat checks to end the persistent damage, and attempted saves against any afflictions.
I think the bolded part is maybe too terse. Or just flat-out wrong/holdover from an earlier draft.
* Curses usually only have an initial save
* Most diseases have daily saves.
* Ingested poisons tend to have a save every X minutes
I'm really not sure if the line about afflictions should even be there, considering that it doesn't make sense for most afflictions. It also doesn't make much sense for poisons with frequencies of 1 round because this would make them work too fast for that (and interact strangely with Delays and other initiative alterations).
I think it makes more sense to treat poison durations in the same way as durations are treated in general (well-known from how we do spells). People have argued that it's harder to track poisons affecting you if you're not tracking them in your turn, but then how come that was never a problem for nasty spells?
The most practical place is to just insert the poison into the initiative order at the place where it's supposed to tick down in duration. Just like a spell really. That way, you don't forget to do it.