| mrspaghetti |
So you create this illusion, and now you're stuck with it for 10 minutes - unless you cast a heightened version, in which case you're stuck with it for an hour, or even forever. Should an illusionist really need to prepare and waste a Dispel Magic every time they cast Illusory Object?
To add further asininity, there are no exceptions or special treatment for dispelling one's own magic RAW that I am aware of, so one could potentially fail to dispel their own illusion and waste another spell slot in the attempt.
| Castilliano |
At the metaphysical level, the caster simply doesn't control it any more, much like conjured objects often can't be dismissed. It's a done deal, remaining even if the caster dies. Does that make one "stuck with it"?
At the metabalance level this lack may be an oversight though IMO it doesn't matter much at all. I don't even understand why you insist an illusionist would "really need to prepare and waste a Dispel Magic". Really? How often?
I can imagine in cities some illusions where all the citizens know about and ignore a significant illusion, perplexing any visitors. "Ah, the new guy hopped in Faux Fountain, splashed right into the sewers below." "That's why I built my bathhouse nearby."
| Unicore |
I think the inability to dismiss illusory object is a deliberately limiting factor on it, although I agree that especially the heightened versions should be dismissible.
It feels like there needs to be a 9th or 10th level chaos demon who's sole purpose is just to keep casting the largest, most disgusting and foulest illusory objects they could into the world, just because they would last forever and it would take a pretty high level caster, a pretty high level spell, to do anything about them.
| Castilliano |
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I think the inability to dismiss illusory object is a deliberately limiting factor on it, although I agree that especially the heightened versions should be dismissible.
It feels like there needs to be a 9th or 10th level chaos demon who's sole purpose is just to keep casting the largest, most disgusting and foulest illusory objects they could into the world, just because they would last forever and it would take a pretty high level caster, a pretty high level spell, to do anything about them.
That's something to consider when using Aboleths. Given enough time, perhaps measured in minutes, they can fill their territory w/ illusions of all sort of significant objects. It's simple to consider them making fake ramps, bridges, and walls, but given their alien mindset who knows what monstrous "art pieces" they might fabricate. Funnily enough, they'd be stuck with their choices, perhaps having to move if they tired of their old decor. I can imagine a side room where an Aboleth tests out tons of variants to see which they prefer.
PCs: "This room must be very important! It's full of magic."| mrspaghetti |
At the metabalance level this lack may be an oversight though IMO it doesn't matter much at all. I don't even understand why you insist an illusionist would "really need to prepare and waste a Dispel Magic". Really? How often?
Well, if you've created a wall during combat, at the point where it would be the most significant obstacle to anyone attempting to pass, it just may be possible that at some point after the combat is over, other beings may wish to pass that point who have the right, the need, and the expectation that they can pass that point without hindrance. Sometimes less than ten minutes after combat, and with increasingly higher likelihood as more time passes.
| mrspaghetti |
I think the inability to dismiss illusory object is a deliberately limiting factor on it
Really? Because Illusory Object is so extremely powerful that it needs to be limited that way? The only way I can think of it being abused is by taking advantage of its long/permanent duration as you describe with your chaos demon. Making it dismissible would not make it more open to abuse or even more powerful as far as I can see.
As an aside to illustrate how little this spell needs to be limited beyond its regular functioning, I had a GM recently who completely disregarded my casting of this spell. He simply had enemies run straight through it without even rolling dice.
| Castilliano |
Castilliano wrote:At the metabalance level this lack may be an oversight though IMO it doesn't matter much at all. I don't even understand why you insist an illusionist would "really need to prepare and waste a Dispel Magic". Really? How often?Well, if you've created a wall during combat, at the point where it would be the most significant obstacle to anyone attempting to pass, it just may be possible that at some point after the combat is over, other beings may wish to pass that point who have the right, the need, and the expectation that they can pass that point without hindrance. Sometimes less than ten minutes after combat, and with increasingly higher likelihood as more time passes.
This unusual example is why I phrased the question as "How often?" rather than "When?". I too can think up potential situations when Dismissing would be useful, yet cannot recall such a situation ever occurring in play, lore, or water cooler nerd chats. So I'm not seeing the "need to prepare and waste a Dispel Magic", as you worded it.
Did this wall example happen? Were the PCs not capable of making a sign? Or placing a tree that oddly phases into this wall on this route they and others are supposed to be taking?Funnily enough, I do believe I've encountered regrets re: Wall of Stone placement. Should casters be able to Dismiss those?
Tangent: Back in olden times when those could be dispelled, I'd actually built an ambush around Dispelling some of my own walls to unleash havoc. (Un-?)Fortunately the party found a second Helm of Opposite Alignment and rectified the situation before I could act on my rather extensive plans.
ETA: "and others"
| Castilliano |
That is not an unusual example, it is the norm for how I cast Illusory Object. How else would it be effective in combat if not placed someplace it can effectively block enemies?
The wall isn't what's unusual, it's the contrived ramifications of said wall which require (but not really) the wall to be removed afterward. I thought this was obvious.
| mrspaghetti |
mrspaghetti wrote:That is not an unusual example, it is the norm for how I cast Illusory Object. How else would it be effective in combat if not placed someplace it can effectively block enemies?The wall isn't what's unusual, it's the contrived ramifications of said wall which require (but not really) the wall to be removed afterward. I thought this was obvious.
Not contrived either. Consider anytime combat occurs in a city street, the courtyard of a castle, a crowded marketplace or tavern. That wall is going to be a problem for someone. These are all very common scenarios which I personally have experienced.
| Castilliano |
Castilliano wrote:Not contrived either. Consider anytime combat occurs in a city street, the courtyard of a castle, a crowded marketplace or tavern. That wall is going to be a problem for someone. These are all very common scenarios which I personally have experienced.mrspaghetti wrote:That is not an unusual example, it is the norm for how I cast Illusory Object. How else would it be effective in combat if not placed someplace it can effectively block enemies?The wall isn't what's unusual, it's the contrived ramifications of said wall which require (but not really) the wall to be removed afterward. I thought this was obvious.
And you couldn't Dispel the illusions later, say during downtime?
Couldn't leave a note apologizing? Or if weighed down that much with responsibility, couldn't have paid an NPC to handle it?And I can't tell if you're saying you (or your PC) have actually regretted not having a Dispel handy on a "very common" basis or if you're saying you can imagine these "very common" encounter locations leading to such regret. How often have you cast Illusory Object then regretted it because you couldn't Dismiss it? Ever?
I mean, do you actually carry Dispel Magic for these reasons (since you did say "need"? Or do you avoid Illusory Object because of this (quite situational) drawback? I ask so specifically because understanding of the strength of your appeal still eludes me. I have to wonder if there's some major gap in my play experience.
And given the innocent-victim density of your examples, I'd say there are far stronger limits on tons of other spells!
Cordell Kintner
|
I mean, Illusionary Object isn't a combat spell as much as it's a spell to do things like:
Hide a secret entrance to your base.
Confuse people who are chasing you.
Swap an object you steal with the illusion.
All those applications would prefer a longer duration if possible, especially the theft part. The writers were probably thinking it would be used for stuff like that, rather than simply summoning walls in combat.
Plus, if it's something you would want gone later just cast it at level 1, nothing is stopping you.
| mrspaghetti |
I mean, Illusionary Object isn't a combat spell as much as it's a spell to do things like:
Hide a secret entrance to your base.
Confuse people who are chasing you.
Swap an object you steal with the illusion.All those applications would prefer a longer duration if possible, especially the theft part. The writers were probably thinking it would be used for stuff like that, rather than simply summoning walls in combat.
Plus, if it's something you would want gone later just cast it at level 1, nothing is stopping you.
But what would be the harm in making it dismissible?
Cordell Kintner
|
Well sure, it would be great if we could dismiss any spell we cast. It doesn't mean we SHOULD be able to dismiss any spell we cast. There's got to be limitations to the magic, otherwise what's the point? The limitation of not being able to dismiss a spell makes you think of the ramifications of casting rather than just being able to cast whatever you like, and then just dismissing it if it causes an issue you didn't think of.
There are only 63 spells that can be dismissed, and most of them are Polymorph spells or Abjurations spells, and honestly I think that's for the best. Being able to remove buff on yourself when they are no advantageous to you is a better use of dismissing a spell than removing an illusion you haphazardly threw into a crowded market.