In short: Are you considered Undetected if you are out of Line of Sight of an enemy?
Practically: You are in a hallway that turns at a right angle. You are 10 feet from the corner. There is an enemy 10 feet past the corner. Neither of you can see each other, but you can hear each other so you know they're there, they know you're there.
It's your turn, and you want to sneak up because you're a Rogue. Can you Sneak to the square that allows you to see and target the enemy? Or must you first Hide, then Sneak?
Action economy is what's on the line. If you can Sneak then Strike, you can Stride away to make it harder for the enemy to retaliate. If you must first Hide, then Sneak, then Strike, you're twisting in the wind at close range at the end of your turn.
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Are you using the Avoid Notice Exploration activity?
- If so, you are presumed to be sneaking at the start of the encounter and your initiative roll determines how aware of you your foe is.
- If not, you are presumed to be taking no special steps to hide yourself and are 'Observed' even though you are around the corner and out of line-of-sight.'
Also, note that sneaking up on a foe is fairly pointless, as you become observed when you end your movement without cover or concealment and your opponent is therefore not flat-footed to your attack (though it can help to avoid opportunity attacks from creatures with reach): You really need to maneuver into a flanking position to reliably sneak attack.
Ahhh, great catch Shroudb and Taja, I had missed the line about not getting to roll if you aren’t in cover at the end of the move.
Thank you both!
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Since the enemy is out of line of sight, we're mostly concerned with hearing. In some cases we might also be concerned with smelling, such as in the case of Sensate Gnomes who upgrade their sense of smell from Vague to Imprecise. But mostly, we're talking about hearing here;
Hearing is an imprecise sense—it cannot detect the full range of detail that a precise sense can. You can usually sense a creature automatically with an imprecise sense, but it has the hidden condition instead of the observed condition. It might be undetected by you if it’s using Stealth or is in an environment that distorts the sense, such as a noisy room in the case of hearing. In those cases, you have to use the Seek basic action to detect the creature. At best, an imprecise sense can be used to make an undetected creature (or one you didn’t even know was there) merely hidden—it can’t make the creature observed.
So if you're around the corner from a creature you're at least Hidden and might be Undetected if you've been really quiet so far. If you're only Hidden, you could Sneak to quietly move to a different square and then you'd be Undetected, because the opponent didn't hear what square you went to.
Now if you wanted to launch some kind of sneak assault on the enemy you might be able to do that if you Sneak right up to the corner (maintaining your Hidden/Undetected status). Consider this diagram, in which the X is a wall, Y is You and E is Enemy:
Y__.
XXX.
XXXE
In this starting situation you and the enemy are Hidden from each other because you can't see each other. Let's say the enemy wasn't using stealth though (perhaps talking to someone else on the phone) so they're not Undetected from you. You can't observe them but you can hear which square they're in.
You roll well and Sneak up to the corner:
__Y.
XXX.
XXXE
You're now Undetected because you used Sneak, and you stay Undetected while lurking around the corner because you have cover. You can now throw a dagger at the enemy who'll be flat-footed. However, it also has cover from you due to the corner. So it won't be a net gain in to-hit. However, if you're a rogue with Sneak Attack, you would get your extra damage. Of course, as soon as you make that attack, you stop being stealthy and the enemy can now see you. However, since you still have cover, you could Hide again.
Yeah, whether or not you need to use Hide depends on what you were doing before.
If you were in Exploration mode you would have needed to be using Avoid Notice.
If you were in round by round tracking (combat time, but without any combat) then you would need to use actions to sneak and move. That would allow you to become undetected, whereas prior to that you might not have been, depending on the alertness of the enemy.
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To come at it from another angle: the premise of the question is slightly wrong.
Regardless of the specifics, you’re flat-footed to a hidden creature.
You don't have to be Undetected to benefit from Sneak Attack against an enemy; being Hidden is sufficient. Even if the enemy knows exactly where you are, if they can't properly observe the strike you're about to make, they're at a disadvantage that a rogue can exploit.
So suppose you start your turn far enough around the corner:
Y__.
XXX.
XXXE
You're always at least Hidden in this position, since there's no line of sight. You don't need to make a check for that. Since you're at least Hidden, you can Sneak, and use that to go to the corner (1 action).
__Y.
XXX.
XXXE
Here you're in line of sight, but you have cover. So if your Sneak succeeded, you didn't become Observed. Actually if you succeed at Sneak you'd become Unobserved but even just staying Hidden would already be sufficient.
You make your Strike using a thrown dagger. Enemy has Cover but is Flat-Footed; if you hit you do sneak attack damage. (2nd action)
By making an attack you broke stealth, and while you have Cover, there is also line of sight, so now you're Observed. However, you have one action left and casually saunter back to where you came from, and become Hidden automatically because line of sight is broken. (3rd action)
Y__.
XXX.
XXXE