Contemplating picking up Courageous Advance we have a team of two front liners (Dual weapon Fighter and Giant instinct Barbarian). Just wanted to get some feedback from the awesome community we have here, is it worth spending that extra action to give your ally essentially an extra action assuming they don't have something better that round to use their Reaction on? I could see Lingering Composition losing a lot of value here if you used this ability multiple times per fight. If your fighting just a solo boss I could see using Lingering on the second round, while the first round using this to help your Fighter or Barbarian get a big first round off (ie. Move (Reaction)/Demoralize/Double Slice).
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The main question I would ask you is do you find yourself often having an extra action on a given turn to dedicate to Courageous Advance? If so, and you told your allies that you took it, then you will likely see some use out of it.
If instead this feat would compete with casting a spell, then you may not want to take it.
It basically comes down to what you already do for your party, and whether your front liners would be willing to use their reaction for the benefit. Early turns, I can see the trade being very worth it.
Additionally, this could allow a Back liner, like a cleric or ranged combatant move out of danger/into an advantageous position without giving up their actions.
Going off beowulf's point, if you have a caster who can cast Heal in the party this could make setting up 3-action heals quite a bit easier.
Ya seems like it would be great for a barbarian wanting to set up for a Whirlwind too. Seems to have lots of solid applications.
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I think it's potentially powerful, but more so if you (and to lesser degree, your team) build and play to take advantage of it.
Let me start by saying that I have a bit of a dislike for builds that spend all their actions giving tepid support to other characters. Any kind of support build has to show that their support is similar in value, to what you could have gotten from another character just doing things themselves. So an ability that lets you trade two actions to give someone else one action is not something you want to be using constantly.
So this ability trades one of your actions and one of your allies' reactions for an action, and it also generally locks you out of some other actions because you also have to use inspire courage. So the obvious comparison is, is it worth it for them to get an extra move if it means you don't get to cast any spells this round?
Well it can be, if you have ways to make your last action valuable. If for example you're an archer bard and you can almost always make good use of your last action to take a shot, but you aren't so hot on making two shots per round anyway (MAP on a non-martial non-agile), then the price isn't that high.
So that's part of the build aspect of making this feat work at full value - you need to build so that you have a strong third action.
Now let's look at the play side of things. When you use this, an ally can use a reaction to Stride. Whether that's a good idea depends a lot on initiative ordering. Consider the following initiative track:
Ally
You
Enemy
If on your turn you use this to make your ally Stride, then he's not going to have a reaction left to use if the enemy does anything funny. However, if the initiative order was like this:
You
Ally
Enemy
Then on your turn you know if your ally still has a reaction left, and if he uses it to Stride, he'll get it back rightaway. And you can go from the bad situation to the good one just by coordinating your play, if your ally Delays until after your turn. So the play aspect doesn't require a genius :)
One key consideration for how good this feat is going to be is whether the GM generally allows reactions before peoples' first turn in initiative. That's a whole topic on its own which I don't want to go into here, but it does have a major impact on how good this feat is. I've marked some of the moves below with $$$ because they hinge on this being an option.
So what are some shenanigans you can do with this feat?
* Tell the wizard to Stride forward; then he takes his turn, casts a short-range spell at nearby enemies, and Strides back into safety with his last action. Courageous!
* Set up flanking situations for a rogue.
* Let the double slice fighter walk up, double slice, and raise shield.
$$$ Let the barbarian range, stride up and use a 2-action combat feat in the first round of combat.
$$$ Let the monk move up, enter stance and use a 2-action combat feat in the first round of combat.
$$$ Let the monk move up, enter stance, flurry and back off again in the first round of combat (normally, hit and run is hard to pull off).
* Let the melee ranger move up, hunt prey, command his animal to come and join him, and twin takedown. (Not full $$$ because unlike rage/stance, you have to keep hunting new prey.)
What I like about the feat is that you really don't have to use it all the time, you can just use it only when there's value to gain from it. Though you may have to train your party not to rely on you doing it every round because that could get boring.
So what are a couple of decent 1-action things to do with a last action?
* Shoot a bow. You've just done Inspire Courage so why not?
* Battle Medicine/Doctor's Visitation (medic archetype)
* Skill-based debufss (Demoralize, Bon Mot) or attacks (Battle Prayer)
* Throw a bomb that you're already holding (warrior muse made you proficient); works best if you're multiclassing alchemist for quick throw
* Move yourself into position
* Recall Knowledge
Many of these can't last for a whole combat because enemies become immune, but you also aren't using this feat every round per se (sometimes you need to cast spells). I think having a bow to go with it is a really strong choice though.
I like that Ascalaphus, thanks. I really like the bow idea except my character currently wields a whip though, I don't know how I would accomodate a short bow. If it isn't possible, then as a third action I would most certainly Demoralize or Bon Mot.
Really it's whatever you can wield while still having your instrument available for casting.
Hmm the Whip is ideal for tripping for our AOO heavy team. Would a sling work in one hand and a whip in the other? So first round of combat I could fire my sling and second round I could move into melee and attempt to trip?
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That would limit you to using your sling only once. You might be better off with maybe a javelin with a Returning rune.
(Throwing weapons are very legit in 2E because the Returning rune is much better than in previous editions: cheap, and the weapon returns immediately, so you can also make multiple attacks per round if needed.)
That would limit you to using your sling only once. You might be better off with maybe a javelin with a Returning rune.
(Throwing weapons are very legit in 2E because the Returning rune is much better than in previous editions: cheap, and the weapon returns immediately, so you can also make multiple attacks per round if needed.)
Very cool, I do plan on getting Warrior Muse as I level higher, would switching to a Bola be a good idea since I want to trip and occasionally deal dmg.
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A bola is as good as a Javalin damage wise, and I see no reason why it wouldn't work with Returning since there is no need for the Bola to actually wrap up the opponents legs longer than it takes to trip them. The only real downsides I see is only dealing non-lethal damage (barely an issue against most enemies) and losing 10 feet of range vs. the Javalin.
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Well the key thing there is whether the GM lets you use Dexterity on Athletics instead of Strength when using a weapon with a maneuver trait like Trip when the weapon lets you use Dexterity to hit (Finesse and ranged weapons).
This is currently an open rules question, people arguing for and against. Let's not repeat it here; let's only look at the consequences for the build.
If the answer is Yes, a finesse/ranged weapon with trip lets you trip using Dexterity instead of Strength, then whips and bolas are a lot better than when the answer is No, you must use Strength for maneuvers always.
As a bard you could focus more on Strength. You have light armor proficiency so you don't necessarily have to have as high a Dexterity as a wizard might like to have. But if you're making ranged attacks, Dexterity is still going to be your to-hit stat and that's important. Also, light armor still pushes you to get to at least a 16 Dexterity. Strength is nice to have because it boosts your damage a bit, but it's probably not a big priority. But the sad consequence of that is, that if maneuvers have to be done on Strength, that you're not that good at them.
Our GM (we've used 4 different ones) all use Dex on Athletics, I guess the Bola I shall get. The only downside I see is that even within 20ft if your trying to Trip the enemy it'll suffer a -2 circumstance penalty and that does hurt :(
Our GM (we've used 4 different ones) all use Dex on Athletics, I guess the Bola I shall get. The only downside I see is that even within 20ft if your trying to Trip the enemy it'll suffer a -2 circumstance penalty and that does hurt :(
Well, the upshot is you get trip from range. I don't see a problem with making that check at a penalty, and usually you should be fine. Especially if you are targeting an opponent with a Low-ish Reflex save.
Is there any way of extending the range via an item or feat to say 30ft?
Is there any way of extending the range via an item or feat to say 30ft?
The Rogue has Strong Arm available at Level 2
Other than that, there aren't many options for increasing a ranged weapon's range. At least none that I am immediately aware of.
I feel others missed that you need to have warriors muse to take Courageous advance, and you need mastros muse to take Lingering Composition. Which is possible if you take Multifarious Muse at level 2. And seeing as how the op mentioned getting warrior muse latter level that would make two feats to make it work as they are a different muse.
Yep will have 3 muses actually (warrior, polymath, maestro) by level 4.
Well ok then, I have to say I did not expect the 3 muse option. It does make courageous advance move to level 6, which is when a barbarian can pick up AoO. Muddying the waters a bit more I feel.
Yep at 6, and your exactly right our barb will be grabbing AOO at that level. It's meant to be used as an opener on the first round, so he could rage/move(reaction)/attack/attack since he's highly unlikely to use that AOO on the first round anyways.
Interesting outlook. Having an AOO and using it are two different things. Many a times you have an AOO but your GM doesn't give you an opportunity to use it. This feat takes the GM right out of it. You are right though, our party does have another caster who could certainly benefit from a move action by using his reaction which he hardly ever uses. Good call.
"Many a times you have an AOO but your GM doesn't give you an opportunity to use it." Because the GM for example will continue to lay prone attacking from the ground, or have low intelligence monsters Step rather than Stride in combat.