For the longest time, I had considered Widen Spell to apply to shrink item as a valid spell to be altered by widen spell: its a thing that multiple groups I’ve played in have always just assumed, and I inherited that without really thinking about it.
However,
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.
While shrink item notes,
Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
That is not a burst, emanation, or spread, nor is it an area!
So, hm. That doesn’t seem to work.Is there any way, in-game, other than caster level, to increase the size of something with a target like this?
Seems to be an odd metamagic oversight.
Anyone know?
(Also weird:
This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories.
... if an object affected can only be up to small size by volume {20x1x1}, then how is it shrunk up to four size categories? Is there some value in which this matters? If you reinterpreted 20x1x1 as being huge I suppose it could work, so that might not be a concern.)
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1 cubic foot of water weighs 62.43 pounds, 20 cubic feet 1,246.6 pounds. Or, if you prefer, 20 cubic feet are 0,566 cubic meters. Not a small volume.
Widen spell function is to increase the area affected by a spread, emanation, or burst, you want a metamagic that increases the volume affected. That is a different purpose. No idea if there is one.
1 cubic foot of water weighs 62.43 pounds, 20 cubic feet 1,246.6 pounds. Or, if you prefer, 20 cubic feet are 0,566 cubic meters. Not a small volume.
For clarity, however, that’s 20 feet by 1 foot by 1 foot. That’s a neat line of whatever that I can easily step over.
But if you put it into a cube, it’s 2’9” by 2’9” by 2’9” which is a “small” object size-wise.
(That’s ~83.8 cm each side.)
That’s not quite twice the size of a bucket high.
1 cubic foot fills a little barrel, while 20 fills a big one... which still isn’t a “large” size object for game terms.
This gets weird, size-wise, when you spill it on the floor, though. XD
Widen spell function is to increase the area affected by a spread, emanation, or burst, you want a metamagic that increases the volume affected. That is a different purpose. No idea if there is one.
Right, yeah, that’s what I was realizing. Thanks! :D
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The sizes for objects are very different from the sizes for creatures. A greatsword is a large weapon, but its actual volume is small.
Even in RL a small stream has way more volume than a large bike, so the definition of large and small is way more nuanced that what you are saying.
20 cubic feet are equivalent to the volume and mass of 5-6 people, and that, in game term is almost the mass of a large creature (a large creature has approximately the mass of 8 medium one). So, even if we use the creature sizes as a reference 20 cubic feet aren't a "smal" volume. Thee are in between medium and large.
Naturally, if you want to shrink a ship 20 cubic feet is nothing. But we are speaking of a 3rd level spell that will last a long time. Getting a huge volume on top of that is a big request.
Ships, I think, wouldn’t work as they are treated as multiple objects?
But I don’t care about ships in particular anyway, I’m trying to get a general thing instead of specific shrink item-specific shenanigans. I just happened to notice it when a player brought it up to me which is why we are here. :D
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Assuming you're after Paizo PF material I think caster level boosts are about it. Or chop the item in half then cast shrink item (or stone shape, whatever) twice, that sort of thing.
Too bad. Thanks!
Hm. What about WotC 3.5?
Or major 3rd party PF?
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Spheres of Power has its own system for targets, which can generally be expanded via talents. The creation sphere has one which doubles the amount of stuff you can create, telekinesis gets more complicated but works similarly.
3.5 has twin spell. Come to that quicken spell also works for getting two spells off at once.
Psionics (3.5 or Dreamscarred) has overchannel as a routine method of casting at a higher manifester (caster) level. Dreamscarred's has at least one instance where increasing a target by an order of magnitude (modify matter which is more or less fabricate) is a different spell/power a couple of levels higher. I'd have thought that a great place to use an augmentation instead but their mileage obviously varies.
Oh, and back in Paizo some spells have mythic versions which you could technically access via a +5 metamagic, I spoke too soon! Stone shape is one of them and allows extra material to be manipulated given extra time spent.
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only thing i can think of is metamagic that effect the number of targets (like the one that cast he spell twice)
Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-huh. That is a really odd gap in metamagic, all-things considered.
I suppose it really doesn't come up enough for most to bother.
I generally shy away from, "get gud" recommendations for caster level because it's so crazy-applicable in general it's just kind of a given.
Still, that's a really interesting take.
Spheres of Power has its own system for targets, which can generally be expanded via talents. The creation sphere has one which doubles the amount of stuff you can create, telekinesis gets more complicated but works similarly.
I might have to review these systems. ... or actually own them. XD
3.5 has twin spell. Come to that quicken spell also works for getting two spells off at once.
only thing i can think of is metamagic that effect the number of targets (like the one that cast he spell twice)
Would these, logically, actually allow for a larger target?
Like, yes, as GM I can do what I want, but I'm curious how things like quicken and twin or echo spell would actually allow you to target something "bigger" following the in-game logic?
Oh, and back in Paizo some spells have mythic versions which you could technically access via a +5 metamagic, I spoke too soon! Stone shape is one of them and allows extra material to be manipulated given extra time spent.
Dreamscarred's has at least one instance where increasing a target by an order of magnitude (modify matter which is more or less fabricate) is a different spell/power a couple of levels higher. I'd have thought that a great place to use an augmentation instead but their mileage obviously varies.
Mm. I'll look into both of these as possible thought-processes to follow.
Thank you all!
(Also weird:
... if an object affected can only be up to small size by volume {20x1x1}, then how is it shrunk up to four size categories? Is there some value in which this matters? If you reinterpreted 20x1x1 as being huge I suppose it could work, so that might not be a concern.)
This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories.
Not sure how you got 20x1x1 from 2 cu. ft./level. Max volume for shrink item is 40 cu. ft. at 20th level. That is cube 3'5" on a side.
Note: a normal person is 2 cu. ft. in volume.
/cevah
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(Also weird:
... if an object affected can only be up to small size by volume {20x1x1}, then how is it shrunk up to four size categories? Is there some value in which this matters? If you reinterpreted 20x1x1 as being huge I suppose it could work, so that might not be a concern.)
This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories.
Not sure how you got 20x1x1 from 2 cu. ft./level. Max volume for shrink item is 40 cu. ft. at 20th level. That is cube 3'5" on a side.
Note: a normal person is 2 cu. ft. in volume.
/cevah
The volume of a human weighing 120/140 lbs is 2.12/2.57 cubic feet. Most adventurers are larger than that, so I would say that a typica adventurer with minimum gear is about 3 cubic feet.
I looked it up: 63.05224 lb/ft³
So at 120#, that is actually less than 2 cu. ft.
Equipment worn does not matter since you are limited to one object.
/cevah