square peg round hole, it holds up in my play experience that even if you are a optimally statted primary caster you fail more often than feels worthwhile at your spells, and summoner is behind on that metric still.Ok, let's make it simple.
Consider that instead of doing what they did, the Summoners had just cast Magic Missile at each and every round using their spell slots, 6 Wands of Manifold Missiles 7 and 10 scrolls of Magic Missile 7 (cost 96k = 60% of their money). I count 20 rounds (I don't know how many rounds there have been, but the Fighter did 56 attacks so there was clearly more than 20 rounds). They would have dealt 1057 points of automatic damage on average.
I can even do more, by using 2 Wands of Magic Missile 5 per combat (36k = 21% of their money) and just using 2 actions at round 1 of each combat and then do nothing else, I would have outdamaged the Phantom Summoner in 24 rounds. There have been easily 30 rounds of combat in total. I can outdamage him in 2 actions per fight with a few low level items....
I'm nearly sure the Phantom Summoner didn't had even a single Wand of Manifold Missiles.So, if I manage to outdamage them with 1980's AIs, I think I can safely say they played their character "non optimally" (I actually think "non optimally" is a very nice word).
In my opinion, they have no high level experience and no mid to high level caster experience. I don't consider this as a valid level 20 Summoner playtest.
I agree. Eidolon needs buffed.
It will be interesting to test. Action to draw the scroll, then 2 actions to cast. That would pretty much be your round. 1 attack from the eidolon in position. But that isn't a terrible tradeoff. No boost. But a little extra damage with AoE.You wouldn't be able to use other than single target AoE in position or you risk killing yourself, which is funny but sad at the same time. So things like chain lightning and horrid wilting would be necessary unless things were well position. Or things you can precisely place.
First, there's no action to draw the scroll. Summoners have 2 hands and nothing to do with them, so you can have 2 scrolls/wands at hand + your spells + a shifted staff if you want. And if you find yourself drawing lots of scrolls, grabbing a Familiar is just one feat.
Also, for AoEs, there is Spell Immunity. Being able to include your Eidolon in your AoEs is quite nice, and it lasts 24h (and also protects from enemy spells). For a Summoner, it may be expensive, but if you have multiple casters, it can be worth using it.But I agree that Chain Lightning and Horrid Wilting are excellent spells. Horrid Wilting does 10d10 damage, 55 average. On 4 to 6 creatures, it's 200-300 damage. And save for half, which means a nearly automatic 100-150 damage. With 4 spell slots, it means around 500 damage if all enemies succeed at their saves, which is all the damage the Summoners did in 6 fights!
AoE damage has the drawback of not focusing damage, but god it deals pain.
Do you mean no action to draw a scroll ever or only because you expect the summoner to have a few in hand to start with? Doesn't he need a free hand to use somatic components? So he could only have one scroll in hand?
Do you mean no action to draw a scroll ever or only because you expect the summoner to have a few in hand to start with? Doesn't he need a free hand to use somatic components? So he could only have one scroll in hand?
As long as your teammates have their weapon drawn, you can have 2 scrolls/wands in hand. If you have some usual spells you like to cast, it should be enough.
If you want to have more choice and be able to choose which scroll to draw just before using it, you just take a Familiar with Valet and Independent and you can draw a scroll for free every round.So, it's not much of a big deal for a Summoner to use scrolls. It's way more anoying when you have to hold any kind of weapon/shield/whatever in hand to be efficient as you need to draw the scroll or even sometimes to drop an item before drawing a scroll.
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So, it's not much of a big deal for a Summoner to use scrolls.
I don't have an issue with this being a playstyle, but I do object that it should even be considered "the right way" to play the class.
As an absurdist reductionist mathematical baseline of "just cast magic missile as often as possible" in order to compare effectiveness? Maybe.
So, it's not much of a big deal for a Summoner to use scrolls.I don't have an issue with this being a playstyle, but I do object that it should even be considered "the right way" to play the class.
Do you object with the fact that having a magic weapon is the right way to play a level 20 martial?
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I don't have an issue with this being a playstyle, but I do object that it should even be considered "the right way" to play the class.
I realize my previous post can be badly interpreted. Does your objection comes from the fact that:
- The right way to play a character is to equip it with magic items?- Some magic items are more important depending on the character you play (weapons for martials, scrolls, wands and staves for casters)?
- Consumables are now properly balanced and as such a properly equipped character will have some?
- The weirdness of the 4-slot casting greatly overvalues the items increasing the number of spells you can cast?
- The test that Exocist made (1 single adventuring day dungeon) greatly overvalues consumables over permanent items?
I don't have an issue with this being a playstyle, but I do object that it should even be considered "the right way" to play the class.I realize my previous post can be badly interpreted. Does your objection comes from the fact that:
- The right way to play a character is to equip it with magic items?
- Some magic items are more important depending on the character you play (weapons for martials, scrolls, wands and staves for casters)?
- Consumables are now properly balanced and as such a properly equipped character will have some?
- The weirdness of the 4-slot casting greatly overvalues the items increasing the number of spells you can cast?
- The test that Exocist made (1 single adventuring day dungeon) greatly overvalues consumables over permanent items?
Not my objection, but I would also object to pulling out scrolls every combat being the right way to play Summoner.
- It's unsatisfying.
- It's impractical in a lot of cases.
- Using "Summoners are casters" to justify it is misleading.
Consumables aren't much fun for a lot of people to use, and they are a lot less pleasant to buy than equipped items. They need to be budgeted as an ongoing expense unless they're for emergency use. (Which is where I personally like to see them.) It is also a bother to buy and track a bunch of consumables, especially if you are starting at mid or high levels.
You often can't go stock up on consumables for stretches of time, and even if they can afford the ongoing expense, they will still run out in a fair number of scenarios.
You mention "weapons for martials, scrolls, wands and staves for casters", but Summoners need to get magic weapons and armor as much as a martial does because the effects copy to their eidolon. They don't have the spare room in their budget that a Wizard or Sorcerer does created by skipping a magic weapon entirely, and with the eidolon fighting, hanging back doesn't protect them if their armor is behind on upgrades.
So, my objections from your list would be, with any additions italicized:
- The right (i.e. most enjoyable) way to play a character for a lot of people is to equip it with magic items
- Some magic items are more important depending on the character you play (weapons for martials, scrolls, wands and staves for casters) and Summoners are at least partly martials
- The test that Exocist made (1 single adventuring day dungeon) greatly overvalues consumables over permanent items
I don't really have the same issue with wands and staves, apart from noting that Summoner doesn't have the spare cash that other casters do.
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it gives you the feeling that your class isn't good enough to operate with expending your currency upon these consumables. is what it does.
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...
Long post, long answer.
The 4 spell slots they gave the Summoner and the Magus creates crazy things, because any item giving you an extra spell actually increases your spell list by 25%, this is out of proportion. That's a very separate point, as it is a direct consequence of one specific rule. If the Summoner stays that way (I doubt it), it will always have this ridiculous issue. If this rule changes, the issue is removed entirely.Then, there's an issue with the Summoner which is its hybrid status. The thing is, depending on levels, casters and martials are not on the same page. At level 1, it's clearly better to focus on the Eidolon and nearly forget about the spellcasting ability of the Summoner. But at level 20, it's the exact opposite. To be able to maintain a pure hybrid, you need martials and casters to be always exactly at the same level of power. Unfortunately, it's not the case right now. So, the Summoner will be, when played optimaly, starting by being Eidolon centric, being more and more balanced at intermediate levels to end up being caster centric.
And about scrolls, it's once again a side effect of the system. There are no more permanent items boosting spellcasting. So, the spellcaster's items are those granting extra spell slots. But because the progression in spell level is very fast and the difference in price between a scroll and a wand high, we end up in a situation where focusing on scrolls instead of wands is the most economically optimized choice.
Anyway, the power of a class has to be calculated when using all the elements at your disposal. So, for this test, scrolls are the obvious choice (made more obvious by the way the test has been made).
Then, you can, with a caster, completely ignore scrolls, wands and such if you play a class with a lot of spell slots compared to the duration of the typical adventuring day or sustainability options (like good Focus Power). But the more your DM forces you on long adventuring days and the more you have to address sustainability for pure efficiency reasons, as casting higher level spells will always have more impact than casting lower level ones.
I personally have no issue with a massive use of scrolls, I'm used to it since Starfinder. But I hear and understand that many people have an issue with it. In my opinion, they should weigh their options when playing a caster and just build sustainable casters. There are lots of options (Wild Druid, Spell Blender Wizard, Bard (not exactly sustainable but so good that you can be a bit underoptimized and not penalize the party), etc...).
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Do you object with the fact that having a magic weapon is the right way to play a level 20 martial?So, it's not much of a big deal for a Summoner to use scrolls.I don't have an issue with this being a playstyle, but I do object that it should even be considered "the right way" to play the class.
These two things aren't remotely comparable and you know it.
One of them chews through consumable resources like its going out of style. The other uses a permanent magic item.Anyway, the power of a class has to be calculated when using all the elements at your disposal. So, for this test, scrolls are the obvious choice (made more obvious by the way the test has been made).
Yeah, you forgot literally everything else the summoner can do. My complaint was that using Magic Missile was "more effective" than the entire fekking class, eidolon, spell slots, feats, and Act Together all pointless because every action was spent casting or preparing to cast another Magic Missile.
Anyway, the power of a class has to be calculated when using all the elements at your disposal. So, for this test, scrolls are the obvious choice (made more obvious by the way the test has been made).Yeah, you forgot literally everything else the summoner can do. My complaint was that using Magic Missile was "more effective" than the entire fekking class, eidolon, spell slots, feats, and Act Together all pointless because every action was spent casting or preparing to cast another Magic Missile.
No, clearly not. In another thread, I've shown that a single Meteor Swarm on a single enemy can reach 200 damage (before save). If I ever had to play a Summoner, I'll outdamage this ridiculous Magic Missile Summoner by using all the features of the class. What I wanted to point out is that the Summoners in this playtest were badly played. That's all. And to proove it, I've just brought a ridiculous, but reliable, playstyle for a comparison.
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That's more of a reason to playtest at 20. It shows that the eidolon doesn't scale with to maintain a players possibly original theme and identity. Wich is a problem. The eidolon despite such investment becomes a secondary feature at best.
That's more of a reason to playtest at 20. It shows that the eidolon doesn't scale with to maintain a players possibly original theme and identity. Wich is a problem. The eidolon despite such investment becomes a secondary feature at best.
Yeah, but that's something you can't change. You would need the Eidolon to become stronger than a full martial for that.
That's more of a reason to playtest at 20. It shows that the eidolon doesn't scale with to maintain a players possibly original theme and identity. Wich is a problem. The eidolon despite such investment becomes a secondary feature at best.Yeah, but that's something you can't change. You would need the Eidolon to become stronger than a full martial for that.
We can be more creative than that. Like if you could make your eidolon immune to your spells and also be the origin point of your spells.
Or even just marks suggestion to maybe get variable action economy act together.