Mr. Fishy is married to his Trollop and Mr. Fishy can assure everyone that married people are NOT having sex.
So where did Mr. Fishy find his Guppies then?
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Until i see a "book of erotic fanasty" i dont care about gay or straight, i dont care about sex period. until i see some stats for aids herpies etc.. sex may as well not exist in pathfinder. only a gm/writer who wants to, will even bring up the subject. so until there is a chance for my character to get a STD sex is just something you ellipsis.
just my 2 cents
That was a 3.5 book, which means the info should all be easily Pathfinderizable with a little conversion. The "Book of Blue Magic" is another one with similar themes, as is "The Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge." I think there were a few more, but "Book of Erotic Fantasy" is pretty darned thorough in its approach. Good artwork, too. Definitely not for the kiddies.
One of my favorites out of the Book of Blue Magic is a spell that strips the target naked. Fun, and useful [as it removes armor].
*EDIT*
On a sidenote, the rules for STDs presented in the Book of Erotic Fantasy actually came up in one of my games, as one player was running a bard with extremely diverse sexual proclivities. He got lucky with most checks, and started investing in preventative measures after I handed him the chapter.
I don't even get the whole "social engineering" thing at all.
Society as a whole does not represent me or anyone I willingly associate with. But rather than whine about it or complain about how my RPG of choice doesn't exactly match my values I make the effort to change my world to come closer to representing me. That's how social revolution happens. That's how change happens. Change doesn't spontaneously appear at my doorstep. Instead I have to go through the effort and campaign for my rights, protest in creative ways, stay informed, and, most of all, not whine about social engineering.
Yes, society doesn't match my values. Yes, I could decide my course of action is to sit on a forum and whine about it. Yes, I could pick fights with people who actively work to keep me from gaining the rights they take for granted.
So? This is a game, not a platform. The platform is out there in cold, unforgiving society where I am at best a second-class citizen, at worst a freak of nature who doesn't deserve to live. But I take that stand. Because I have to. And when I'm tired, bloodied, and need something to make me feel like it's worth it, I can come inside and play.
You don't have to get into sex, much less explicit sex in order to have gay or straight in your games.
Are there couples, married or otherwise? Is there romance? Are characters (PCs, NPCs, villains) sometimes motivated by love? Or lust?
Are you just going to assume all of that only happens between straight people until you have mechanics for sex?Fantasy books, especially kids/YA fantasy, rarely have explicit sex, but very often has romances. That's the genre this game is about.
I understand and mostly agree with you but I am not in agreement that the genre you list is the only one that this game system is about.
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OK but you do realize that your opinion on the subject is shaped by social engineering already. I am not trying to dismiss you or your opinion but if you want to use that term then we should apply it equally, to all the extant methods of social engineering operating in any given culture or society.
I can respect your position that art/entertainment should not be engaged in social engineering but I do disagree.
With respect, man + woman = continued civilization. It has worked this way since the beginning. Every other type of association is deviant. Do I judge folks for living such a lifestyle? No. It's none of my business. We just happen to live in a time when "mixed families" are possible due to scientific intervention and the result of decades of social and cultural change (What brought about these social and cultural changes are beyond the scope of this venue).
Man + Woman is a biological fact. It is the way it was designed. There really just is no legitimate way to argue otherwise. If there is social engineering involved in recognition of this fact, it is merely to reinforce the correctness of this truth. To tell others that understand this basic truth that other ways are just as correct as what nature intended, is delusional.
Once again, this is exactly why discussions like this are political dynamite. Even in a respectful, reasoned response like this, there will be those offended that I cut directly to the chase and addressed the reality of the situation for what it is. In that spirit, if I have offended anyone with this post, I humbly and sincerely apologize.
Can we get back to gaming now? :)
Man + Woman is a biological fact. It is the way it was designed. There really just is no legitimate way to argue otherwise. If there is social engineering involved in recognition of this fact, it is merely to reinforce the correctness of this truth. To tell others that understand this basic truth that other ways are just as correct as what nature intended, is delusional.
Once again, this is exactly why discussions like this are political dynamite. Even in a respectful, reasoned response like this, there will be those offended that I cut directly to the chase and addressed the reality of the situation for what it is. In that spirit, if I have offended anyone with this post, I humbly and sincerely apologize.
Two things:
One, and this is not in fact an attempt to troll you. I honestly do not understand how gay PCs amounts to social engineering.
Two. How is the Man + Woman = Baby argument even relevant in game? This is Golarion, a world with magic. Using the core spells alone you could find a method for Wizard + Right Hand = Baby. Methods, if you're willing to put yourself through some mental exercise.
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With respect, food + water + shelter = continued civilization. It has worked this way since the beginning. Every action that isn't directly about generating and sharing one of these is a waste of resources. Please stop wasting time choosing clothes that look good and apreciating the arts in any manner.
For that matter please stop playing games, such as pathfinder, they aren't needed for survival.
This isn't an argument but rather a deflection of the issue.
The fact is that people have and always will enjoy doing things that aren't 100% coldly rational. I wouldn't want to live somewhere that wasn't true.
Anyone can justify anything, but it doesn't make it right. Am I saying I'm perfect? No.
PS: 1 reason I don't have issues with LGBT people is that overpopulation is a huge issue in the world and LGBT people have life styles they enjoy that don't involve increasing the world's problems through making lots of babies.
Please, don't get me started on this talking point...
This thread should probably be locked up right about now, as I can just see the flames getting ready to be hurled my way...
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Two things:
One, and this is not in fact an attempt to troll you. I honestly do not understand how gay PCs amounts to social engineering.
Two. How is the Man + Woman = Baby argument even relevant in game? This is Golarion, a world with magic. Using the core spells alone you could find a method for Wizard + Right Hand = Baby. Methods, if you're willing to put yourself through some mental exercise.
I'll answer with the utmost in respect as briefly as I can.
1) Take some time to learn about propaganda from Bernays. Then learn about Hegel. It boils down to "Problem, Reaction, Solution". This is the essence of social engineering. Someone creates a problem, they guide the reaction, and offer up a solution that is not quite perfect but allows them the continue with the cycle until they get what they want. It is incremental, done over time, and can be likened to the frog in a pot of boiling water analogy.
Further, social engineers attempt to infiltrate every possible sector to spread their ideas that promote whatever agenda it is they are pushing at that time. This includes but is not limited to education, media, politics, and the private sector.
To put the current discussion in a bit of perspective, this has been going on since well before the 60's.
2) It is relevant in this discussion due to context. We are discussing a topic of political dynamite that has repercussions outside of the game as well as within.
Does that help to answer your question? :)
Man + Woman is a biological fact. It is the way it was designed. There really just is no legitimate way to argue otherwise.
Social engineering does not cause subtle in-utero developmental differences in brain architecture. That such exists and develops during prenatal development is a biological fact. Societal perceptions of those differences varies by culture, but it's there.
*steps off the biologist soapbox*
With respect, food + water + shelter = continued civilization. It has worked this way since the beginning. Every action that isn't directly about generating and sharing one of these is a waste of resources. Please stop wasting time choosing clothes that look good and apreciating the arts in any manner.
For that matter please stop playing games, such as pathfinder, they aren't needed for survival.
This isn't an argument but rather a deflection of the issue.
The fact is that people have and always will enjoy doing things that aren't 100% coldly rational. I wouldn't want to live somewhere that wasn't true.Anyone can justify anything, but it doesn't make it right. Am I saying I'm perfect? No.
PS: 1 reason I don't have issues with LGBT people is that overpopulation is a huge issue in the world and LGBT people have life styles they enjoy that don't involve increasing the world's problems through making lots of babies.Please, don't get me started on this talking point...
This thread should probably be locked up right about now, as I can just see the flames getting ready to be hurled my way...
Leans forward in his seat and rubs hands fiendishly "It's beginning come on just a little bit more somebody make a reference to Gay marriage being constitutional/unconstitutional and it is on
its like eurpoe before ww1 in here !
Leans forward in his seat and rubs hands fiendishly "It's beginning come on just a little bit more somebody make a reference to Gay marriage and we are in!"
No my question about who is the Goldilocks's hasn't been answered yet.
Leans forward in his seat and rubs hands fiendishly "It's beginning come on just a little bit more somebody make a reference to Gay marriage and we are in!"No my question about who is the Goldilocks's hasn't been answered yet.
I edited sorry
Leans forward in his seat and rubs hands fiendishly "It's beginning come on just a little bit more somebody make a reference to Gay marriage and we are in!"With respect, food + water + shelter = continued civilization. It has worked this way since the beginning. Every action that isn't directly about generating and sharing one of these is a waste of resources. Please stop wasting time choosing clothes that look good and apreciating the arts in any manner.
For that matter please stop playing games, such as pathfinder, they aren't needed for survival.
This isn't an argument but rather a deflection of the issue.
The fact is that people have and always will enjoy doing things that aren't 100% coldly rational. I wouldn't want to live somewhere that wasn't true.Anyone can justify anything, but it doesn't make it right. Am I saying I'm perfect? No.
PS: 1 reason I don't have issues with LGBT people is that overpopulation is a huge issue in the world and LGBT people have life styles they enjoy that don't involve increasing the world's problems through making lots of babies.Please, don't get me started on this talking point...
This thread should probably be locked up right about now, as I can just see the flames getting ready to be hurled my way...
California
IowaProp 8
New York
Irrelevant reference to ancient Greeks
Mormons
Pride
Stonewall
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If anyone wants to see an explicitly gay Pathfinder character, I would suggest checking out the Pathfinder Tales. I won't say which character where reveals this, since that would be spoiler of a plot point, but it is indeed there in the fiction.
As for the iconics, I think considering them all bisexual is the right tack to take, since it allows GMs to decide for themselves how to play them if they use them as NPCs without making changes to the existing canon. Personally, to give an example, I view Valeros, Seoni and Marisiel to be a pretty standard polyamorous threesome. I think Valeros has other girlfriends on the side, but they're not his primaries, mostly because they're geographically undesirable and he' s a ramblin' man who doesn't want to settle down and the two ramblin' gals suit his lifestyle. Plus there's that whole "Wow, we just survived! That's such a turn on!" thing.
Seoni? I think she's asexual bicurious. Well, that curiosity has been satisfied by now, but sex means so much to Valeros and Merisiel, and it's pleasant enough as such things go, but she's probably thinking about mystic theory while going at it.
Merisiel I see as straight off bisexual polyamorous sybarite. She's not in love with either Valeros or Seoni, but they're friends with benefits with nice bodies which aren't going to last that long being human so might as well gather ye roses while ye may before they wilt.
Alain? He's a narcissist who's a womanizer because he's all into conquests, and if women are conquests, then he's all into that. The degree to which he'd be bicurious would depend entirely on what's in it for him and the way the world is being run. Can men be conquests and is there no social stigma for being gay? Then sure. He'd even have a war so he could wed Harry of Troy or whatever because it's the conquest that's the turn on. Is society homophobic? Then Alain would be too. Whatever he was, however, I don't see him as a bottom. His personality profile is top all the way, regardless of the type of sex he's having.
And so forth, but I should stress that these are just my personal interpretations and how I'd play or write the characters given what I've read thus far. The final decision is James' as they're his characters.
Homosexuality creates tight social bonding between men in warfare (Spartans were famous for this)
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1) Take some time to learn about propaganda from Bernays. Then learn about Hegel. It boils down to "Problem, Reaction, Solution". This is the essence of social engineering. Someone creates a problem, they guide the reaction, and offer up a solution that is not quite perfect but allows them the continue with the cycle until they get what they want. It is incremental, done over time, and can be likened to the frog in a pot of boiling water analogy.
Further, social engineers attempt to infiltrate every possible sector to spread their ideas that promote whatever agenda it is they are pushing at that time. This includes but is not limited to education, media, politics, and the private sector.
To put the current discussion in a bit of perspective, this has been going on since well before the 60's.
2) It is relevant in this discussion due to context. We are discussing a topic of political dynamite that has repercussions outside of the game as well as within.
Does that help to answer your question? :)
1. Soooo...
You're saying change is bad?
The conspiracy you mention is nothing new. Society has always been influenced by a select few individuals. The method has changed in the past 100 years as monarchies were disbanded as part of Armistice after the Great War. Pushing unpopular agendas, whether they be "the Earth is round", "all men are created equal", "equal pay for equal work", "no means no even if they're married", or even "gays are people too and deserve the same rights" has always the job of your conspiracy.
I'm definitely not arguing that there's no conspiracy. And I'm not arguing that there haven't been some really radical changes wrought by it, I mean, come on, women voting? End of segregation? Separation of church and state?
Just saying that social engineering is bad because it's social engineering is not an answer. Yes, there's some vast conspiracy. That's how society works. I need to know how it's bad and just saying "it's bad because it's a conspiracy and here's the proof that it's a conspiracy" is not telling me that it's bad. It's telling me that it exists. And I already knew that.
2. But it's only made into a topic of contention in forums like this. It's not a topic of contention in your own game. At least I assume it's not because I've played in games where one guy just wanted to argue and it was one of the worst games I've been in.
Just from a sampling of people on these boards, very few people have boycotted, say, RotRL because there's a gay paladin. Many, many people have praised it. Just from an economic standpoint it is advantageous for Paizo to continue supporting GLBT characters and NPCs because people buy it. And given RotRL sold out, I'd say they buy a lot.
Having an iconic who is gay gives players a sense of license to do such exploration.
I thought 'having open minded and mature players who have grown up enough not to be hung up about where another person puts their rude bits in the privacy of their own home/time/dime' was what gave license to such exploration, not 'what pretty picture and fluff text some dude/woman I have never met (or will ever meet) put together as an Iconic'.
I don't need a special leave pass from Paizo to include matters of sexuality into the game, thats my prerogative as a player/GM :P
Go forth and explore, be freeeeeee!
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If I'm defensive, it's because I do quite like all of our iconics... even the ones I pick on. And when I see folks complain about them... even as in this case when the complaints aren't ACTUALLY complaints but a desire for more information... I just get defensive.That said... I'm actually curious. What iconics would you nominate as being bad choices as gay or lesbian because that would make them into stereotypes?
As for being stereotypes, I think Valeros and Amiri would be the worst choices to be outed. I'd also hate to see Lini outed as bisexual-- not because of bisexual stereotypes, but because of gnome stereotypes.
Who would be the best choices? Harsk, just because the idea of dwarves having any sexuality whatsoever is kind of funny, and Kyra, because I like the idea of the church accepting a lesbian into the order. If you ever "out" Kyra, please make sure the church knew about it when they made her a cleric and were fine with it.
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Marking this thread waiting for the fun to begin
****gets A chair and some POPCORN*****pulls up a chair next to Lobo along with a airline style beverage cart*
Would you like coffee or tea?
Are you in the rocking Pan-Am stewardess outfit TCG?
If so Tea please.
The extremely sexist stylized 60's version, yes.
*hands Dragonsong a teacup.
Hey TCG! Can you check the threads Cecil Von Spirito has posted in? Thanks!
I prefer to not make a big deal out of character sexuality.
It detracts from the evolution and growth of the plot and bogs down game-play no matter what the orientation.
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Alain? He's a narcissist who's a womanizer because he's all into conquests, and if women are conquests, then he's all into that.
Which is part of what makes him scary. Alain seems like the medieval version of a prison bull or an alpha jock. He's engaging in heterosexual behavior, but it's not because he's particularly attracted to women (in fact, commonly, people with this ego-type regard women, or men who 'act girly,' in their eyes, as weak or pathetic), it's because he's attracted to pleasuring himself and dominating others.
He's like Cayden Cailean's evil twin, or an even *more* selfish verison of Sterling Archer.
.
And wasn't Mialee, from 3.0, with the Adam's apple, the first iconic transgendered person?
He's like Cayden Cailean's evil twin, or an even *more* selfish verison of Sterling Archer.
Anyone else imagining H. Jon Benjamin's voice coming out of Alain right now?
Oh my god, how did this happen? This started as a discussion of which topics were taboo in pathfinder and narrowed into whether or not iconics should have identified sexualities.
So why the hell are we now discussing whether or not being gay/bi/lesbian/transexual is right or wrong with thinly veiled "I don't mean to offend" and nasty snips?
Oh my god, how did this happen? This started as a discussion of which topics were taboo in pathfinder and narrowed into whether or not iconics should have identified sexualities.
So why the hell are we now discussing whether or not being gay/bi/lesbian/transexual is right or wrong with thinly veiled "I don't mean to offend" and nasty snips?
Agreed.
I don't make a big deal out of character sexuality most of the time, but I have had players do so. In my current PF game (Council of Thieves), one PC has taken up with Yakopulio (the gnome pimp) and is now a halfling, cos-play gigolo on the side.
In another game, to hit specifically on the gay issue, one female heterosexual player asked if she could play a gay male pilot (this was for a Cyberpunk 2020 cop-based game). I said that was fine. Turns out, she may have been using that to help explore some of her own sexual preference issues because the very next year she started batting for the other team.
Ultimately, sexuality is whatever the individual table makes of it, but I appreciate Paizo's work in providing us with a variety of textures in the adventure and source materials they write.
Oh my god, how did this happen? This started as a discussion of which topics were taboo in pathfinder and narrowed into whether or not iconics should have identified sexualities.
So why the hell are we now discussing whether or not being gay/bi/lesbian/transexual is right or wrong with thinly veiled "I don't mean to offend" and nasty snips?
You have to admit, people have made it clear that sexuality runs along the edge of taboo/not taboo. And that helps make this discussion interesting.
I'm very happy that you grew up in a group where such freedom was freely available.
Well sort of.
There was still a lot of problems for 'gay identified' people in the broader local environment, but this changed over time through several public service and awarenss raising activities - such as Mardi Gras.
With that said, I think closed minded people who find openly GLBTQ characters are just as likely to continue with their views and either handwave the character, ignore it, or even worse carry on with the character but denigrate it or treat it like a joke. The 'Gay Paladin' is not just now a man like any other in the town who happens to love other men, but instead is some mincing squealing Queen who carrys on like a 1950's Here's Lucy parody. A tool used to firmly cement bigotry and bias.
ALSO, Set, I'mma threadjack up here for a moment to call you out. You should totally go and post here, man! TOTALLY! :)
So, fair warning, I'm coming out of the closet! ... Sort of. At least as "out of the closet" as a white*, puritanical**, conservative***, heterosexual*****, male**** can get! Also, I talk/type/whatever way too much, so spoiler tags for your convenience! Use or ignore at your own option.
G%&$~&n puritan rednecks.
Wait. I'm a puritan. I'm also a redneck. But if I'm saved, can I be condemned to hell by God?! Nooooooooooooooo! My entire belief system is shattered! (Nah. We coo', by the way. We coo'.)
This thread should probably be locked up right about now, as I can just see the flames getting ready to be hurled my way...
Nah. I understand where you're coming from, and even generally agree. Also, "deviant" doesn't mean "incorrect", but rather "not biologically normative for continuance of the species". That said, depending on the religious beliefs... well, religion is a sticky topic anywhere you go.
In addition to Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Puritanism, etc, there are quite a few different cultures who have taboos of all kinds which, to our mind, make little sense, but to them are vitally important. Deathly important. It's one reason we have terrorism across the globe: people are willing to die (and cause terror) in order to push their agenda.
Further: sexuality (and anything, really) can be oppressive (and repressive) even in "open" societies. Sparta, for example was expected and required homosexual interaction between men in order to "strengthen" the bond of war-brothers or whatever. You were seen as a deviant if you didn't follow that line of thought.
ALL THIS TO SAY: biologically, the way the species propagates and continues is effectively exactly as Aspasia de Malagant indicates.
I, as a GM, have introduced LGBT characters into my games sometimes. It's not common, but they are there. Sometimes it's a big deal. Sometimes it's not. I'm proud to say that, at least once, an NPC was discovered to be homosexual and my players were quite surprised (usually they never even know)! I push no agenda, but I easily could... one way or the other. Social engineering happens, sometimes on purpose, sometimes accidentally, and openly flaunting certain lifestyles actually normalizes those lifestyles amongst a community who accepts. Whether or not this is a good thing
I, as a person, have friends who are part of that community. I, as a person, disagree with them. But I still regard them as my friends... and the reverse is also true. We agree to disagree agreeably (although occasionally passionately) and still remain friends, despite the rather strong and deep divisions that rune between us. Hey, people are different, and I might never sway people to my way of seeing things, but I might! And that is worth the effort to know people. As well as, you know, to to know people and enjoy their company.
I, as a person have an inherently biased and "intolerant"^^^, but then again, many religions are by their nature. I'm not out to condemn people, but I also don't like being condemned. It kind of happens, both ways, though. And it's social engineering on both sides to fix things according to their way of thinking.
To make a long story short (too late!): I social engineer, you social engineer, we all social engineer, and we prefer the things that reinforce our biases. And every last one of us have biases. Especially the people who say they don't. Except me. I have no biases whatsoever!^^
EDIT-BEFORE-POSTING-GUYS-C'MON-LET-A-GUY-POST-STUPID-LONG-THINGS-OKAY-OKAY- THANKS: those who disagree with eachother let's just take a breather, m'kay? Nice, deep breaths. Calm. Peace. Enter your "happy place" (and/or prayer closet). We cool? Cool.
Now, re: social engineers: yeah, they do. The thing most people don't realize is that most people socially engineer automatically, by virtue of being themselves. Sure it can be a conscious decision, it can easily be a "moral imperative" to do so, and has been done in the past. Example: our current hetero-normative society was collected and created by social engineers on purpose. It's also an unconscious decision. There are often people who social engineer not to purposefully push an agenda, but just because they, themselves, feel that something is right, justified, or whatever, and insert it and feel like they are doing the right thing. Sometimes it's business related: without exposing a certain side, business would be lost (and this point was just made for me by someone above, nice job! :D). But by exposing that side, social engineering is performed. Social engineering is not discreet. Also words I'm seeing being used can be taken as prejorative and reactionary. My own post can contain seemingly unpleasant words (usually directed towards the religious groups I represent, oddly enough!). Earlier, an openly gay poster used the word "queer" to refer to homosexuality and was believed to be prejudiced against homosexuals. It's possible to happen, but he's since clarified that wasn't his intent.
Before looking at words and feeling angry about them, let's breath, see how we'd say things, and maybe suggest one or two changes. I mean, dudes. Being passionate about stuff WITHOUT being angry is difficult. Also, I may just be reading things wrong.
Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who, let's simply leave our (one) post about what we see and feel, chillax, perhaps clarify things (instead of arguing them or making claims that are incendiary towards those who disagree with us), offer to let others come to our way of thinking, and then bicker and argue about how to kill the Tarrasque. Cool?
Also: Paizo, it's your company. We'll take what we get, strain what we don't like (the "How did you change Golarion?" thread is proof of that) and enjoy the rest! (Or be really snarky and/or cruel about it online. That happens too.)
* Look technically I'm "Native American", if mixed, but you'd never know to look at me. When I've got my 7th-Grade students telling me, "frankly, you people were racists" I just have to explain that, in fact, they are being racist by presuming "race" is visual in nature (it's not) and that it's a term that includes various ethnicities, not just one. Elves hating orcs (and the reverse): racism. Elves hating drow (and the reverse): ethnicitism. (Or whatever. Apparently "ethnicities" and "ethnicitism" aren't real words, or I'm misspelling them. Fun!
** I don't really ascribe to the term "protestant", as it derives itself from a movement that my religious heritage doesn't actually stem from, despite the fact that I'm "non-Catholic" (my wife is Catholic, however) and "non-Orthodox"^... which is why I'm generally termed "protestant". So, you know, I'm a protestant. It works, socially, even if it may be misleading.
*** Conservative like you wouldn't believe. Seriously. I'm like one of those complete nut-jobs you hear about on TV. Except you don't hear about me on TV. ALSO, I totally believe in a young-earth Creationism, and that all other religions are completely wrong! That said, I love all you guys, and totally hope you except Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, as your God incarnated on Earth Who came to give you (personally!) eternal life after this. Crazy, right?! Dudes: I even believe in NO DIVORCE. I'm like, extreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeme! Also cruel!^^ And filled with spite and hate!^^
**** Last time I checked. Hey! Still male!
***** And I've got a wife and kid to prove it! And loving every minute of it! (Given the topic of this forum, I'll leave out what "it" is). Unrelated (no), I can certify that Mr. Fishy is wrong. So, yeah. Er. Um. HEY LOOK A DISTRACTION!
^Dudes, non-orthodox doesn't even begin to cover it! Ooh! Self-burn from nowhere!
^^Notsomuch. Probably totally insane, though.
^^^Intolerance! Such an over-used word that has lost most of its meaning! In fact, Christianity isn't intolerant... at all. It's among the most inherently tolerant religions in the world. You can be wrong as much as you want to. You're still wrong, but tolerated. Ergo, "tolerance". It's not really used according to it's proper definition, so I use it in it's cultural definition: exclusive. That is to say, one cannot accept both my religion and another, different religion as both being true.
You have to admit, people have made it clear that sexuality runs along the edge of taboo/not taboo. And that helps make this discussion interesting.
I guess that's the crux of it, isn't it? I'm openly gay, and I spend my time with people who simply don't give a s--- about what my sexual orientation is. Issues of "are we being gay-inclusive" don't really come up in my life. But seeing as how quickly this got out of hand I have to say that I'm thankful.
With that said, I think closed minded people who find openly GLBTQ characters are just as likely to continue with their views and either handwave the character, ignore it, or even worse carry on with the character but denigrate it or treat it like a joke. The 'Gay Paladin' is not just now a man like any other in the town who happens to love other men, but instead is some mincing squealing Queen who carrys on like a 1950's Here's Lucy parody. A tool used to firmly cement bigotry and bias.
This is basically true regardless of who/what/when/where we are talking about. People tend to confirm their bias. Both for fun and profit! It's our way (as humans) of dealing with things. Bias isn't inherently even a bad thing (though it's often made out to be), but it can be quite dangerous. Like change, there's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it can be quite devastating if the wrong change happens. Funny thing, though, life is that way.
SPEAKING OF CHANGE, PAIZO, I'D LIKE TO HAVE MY OWN AVATAR. (lousy using the same avatar for every forum I'm a part of that has avatars but this one.) :D
ALSO I TOTALLY FORGOT:
Referencing A Dark Mistress' thing about it...
Yeah, in one game I've run, there's an entire black market based around those cursed belts of gender reversal (actually cursed items in general). One NPC in Serpent Skull (not a pre-generated one) was very grateful to get it (and use it right away)!
Fun times.
STUFF OMG
Well said.
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1. Soooo...
You're saying change is bad?
When it goes against the natural order, yes. In all cases, no. If the change comes as a result of manipulation or force, then no matter what it is, I don't think that's right. People should have the option to choose for themselves, making that decision from a well reasoned position free from outside influence. Is that 100% possible? I don't believe it is, but objectivity should be the goal.
The conspiracy you mention is nothing new. Society has always been influenced by a select few individuals. The method has changed in the past 100 years as monarchies were disbanded as part of Armistice after the Great War. Pushing unpopular agendas, whether they be "the Earth is round", "all men are created equal", "equal pay for equal work", "no means no even if they're married", or even "gays are people too and deserve the same rights" has always the job of your conspiracy.
Yet we continue to allow these folks to shape our thoughts and behavior. It's mind control pure and simple. Not the tin-foil hat kind either...
I'm definitely not arguing that there's no conspiracy. And I'm not arguing that there haven't been some really radical changes wrought by it, I mean, come on, women voting? End of segregation? Separation of church and state?
The first two things should never have been tolerated in the first place. The separation of church and state is another example of problem, reaction, solution in action. The entire argument was taken way out of context and taken to the nth degree beyond anything any founder intended.
Just saying that social engineering is bad because it's social engineering is not an answer. Yes, there's some vast conspiracy. That's how society works. I need to know how it's bad and...
The idea that someone (or a group of someones) can guide, direct, or otherwise manipulate a society by changing its values and culture, I find to be repugnant. Does that mean certain tweaks are in order to refine the outward expression of that society's values? Sure. But, that is not what is going on here. When you look at the body of changes that have occurred just in the past 20 years, it is easy to spot an agenda at work. An agenda that is not in harmony with our founding values. In fact, many facets of said agenda are contradictory to those values.
The way this all ties into the discussion and my initial statement concerning social engineering, boils down to how folks are, innocently enough, trying to push the agenda down our throats in accordance with the Hegelian Dialectic (problem, reaction, solution).
Folks can flame me all they want, but the truth is the truth, it is unbiased and immutable.
Hey TCG! Can you check the threads Cecil Von Spirito has posted in? Thanks!
The extremely sexist stylized 60's version, yes.*hands Dragonsong a teacup.
Uhh.. Sure.
*puts down tray* *Changes of his Dragqueen flight attendant outfit*
Flame bait.
Whelp, I'm out. Y'all have a nice argument.
Flame bait.Whelp, I'm out. Y'all have a nice argument.
I'm Still in don't stop on my account.....or you could just stop not he whole account of internet+person+serious topic+forum+"hot topic"= recipe for disaster
Locking thread. I don't think I need to explain why, but just in case, here are the policies, right below every text entry box:
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