Does my familiar flank?

[bearcatbd]

Question came up in an encounter...my familiar delivered a touch spell (via Spell Delivery Master Ability) in the round. Another player then moves in to attack on the opposite side of the monster. Does the familiar allow for flanking in this case?

[Taja the Barbarian]

Tiny creatures typically have a 0' reach, which means they can never provide a flanking bonus as they need to enter their opponent's square to attack.

Chapter 9: Playing the Game / Encounter Mode / Movement in Encounters / Size, Space, and Reach wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 473 1.1

Creatures and objects of different sizes occupy different amounts of space. The sizes and the spaces they each take up on a grid are listed in Table 9–1: Size and Reach (page 474). Table 9–1 also lists the typical reach for creatures of each size, for both tall creatures (most bipeds) and long creatures (most quadrupeds). See page 455 for more about reach.

...

Multiple Tiny creatures can occupy the same square. At least four can fit in a single square, though the GM might determine that even more can fit. Tiny creatures can occupy a space occupied by a larger creature as well, and if their reach is 0 feet, they must do so in order to attack.

Chapter 9: Playing the Game / Encounter Mode / Movement in Encounters / Flanking wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 476 1.1

When you and an ally are flanking a foe, it has a harder time defending against you. A creature is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to creatures that are flanking it.

To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposites sides or corners of the creature. A line drawn between the center of your space and the center of your ally’s space must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the foe’s space. Additionally, both you and the ally have to be able to act, must be wielding melee weapons or able to make an unarmed attack, can’t be under any effects that prevent you from attacking, and must have the enemy within reach. If you are wielding a reach weapon, you use your reach with that weapon for this purpose.

[bearcatbd]

Thank you! I figured there was a rules out there they cannot flank but couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks for the reference!

Hypothetically, if it were Enlarged but already delivered it's touch attack, could you assume that he has no melee or unarmed attack left and still cannot flank in that case?

[shroudb]

I do not think familiars are threatening even when enlarged.

Quote:

Additionally, both you and the ally have to be able to act, must be wielding melee weapons or able to make an unarmed attack, can’t be under any effects that prevent you from attacking, and must have the enemy within reach. If you are wielding a reach weapon, you use your reach with that weapon for this purpose.

From what i can tell, familiars arent able to make attacks unless you specifically command them to deliver a touch spell or something (so at any point they aren't actively delivering such a spell, they arent threatening)

[cavernshark]

bearcatbd wrote:

Thank you! I figured there was a rules out there they cannot flank but couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks for the reference!

Hypothetically, if it were Enlarged but already delivered it's touch attack, could you assume that he has no melee or unarmed attack left and still cannot flank in that case?

That is correct. Once spell delivery is complete, the spell and the threat it produces is gone. They definitely don't threaten outside that with no attacks.

Quote:

Spell Delivery

Source Core Rulebook pg. 218 1.1
Ability Type Master
If your familiar is in your space, you can cast a spell with a range of touch, transfer its power to your familiar, and command the familiar to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target. If it doesn’t reach the target to touch it this turn, the spell has no effect.

[Thezzaruz]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Tiny creatures typically have a 0' reach, which means they can never provide a flanking bonus as they need to enter their opponent's square to attack.

I have to disagree on this as the basic mechanic for "Spell Delivery" is "-> move to foe -> touch to deliver spell". And as the familiar then lacks actions to move away from touch range I can't see how it makes it out of reach either.

Of course, as mentioned above, it is still questionable that the familial have the melee attack required to qualify for flanking.

There is also the fact that being in the same square as the foe makes it hard to meet the positional requirements for flanking "A line drawn between the center of your space and the center of your ally’s space must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the foe’s space.".

So all in all I agree that the familiar won't count for flanking.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Thezzaruz wrote:

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Tiny creatures typically have a 0' reach, which means they can never provide a flanking bonus as they need to enter their opponent's square to attack.

I have to disagree on this as the basic mechanic for "Spell Delivery" is "-> move to foe -> touch to deliver spell". And as the familiar then lacks actions to move away from touch range I can't see how it makes it out of reach either.

...

Technically speaking, a familiar with a 0' reach would have to enter the target's square to deliver the spell, at which point it can neither provide nor receive a flanking bonus.

Chapter 7: Spells / Ranges, Areas, and Targets / Touch Range wrote:

Source Core Rulebook pg. 304 1.1

A spell with a range of touch requires you to physically touch the target. You use your unarmed reach to determine whether you can touch the creature. You can usually touch the target automatically, though the spell might specify that the target can attempt a saving throw or that you must attempt a spell attack roll. If an ability increases the range of a touch spell, start at 0 feet and increase from there.

Of course, the familiar rules are rather vague on this potentially significant detail...

I do agree with the other posters that familiars don't seem to have melee attacks, so they can't 'threaten' even if they do have 5'+ reach somehow...