|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Am I missing someghing about this Focus spell? It's a reaction with the trigger "You cast a darkness or shadow spell."
It seems basically unusable at levels 1 and 2 since there are no occult level 1 spells with those traits.
Well, at least not in CRB+APG. Admittedly, there's Penumbral Shroud in Gods and Magic, but that spell isn't exactly high on the usefulness list and I don't really consider the Lost Omens line "Core".
So even ignoring the fact that I think it's a badly designed 1st level Focus power, being outright unable to use it AT ALL seems like it might need some fixing.
Level 2 has darkness, but you are otherwise correct, it is a relatively limited spell in its capability at low levels. I'm not sure it is the most limited because some of the low level cleric focus spells are worse I think
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Darkness is 3 actions and Dim the Light ends if you don't have cover or concealment before the end of the turn. Makes using them in conjunction a bit awkward, though not impossible.
And while some cleric focus spells might be worse, the cleric has like 4 different ones to choose from for each deity. Or he can forego taking a focus spell by becoming a warpriest.
Clerics also get their font to have something to do that doesn't eat their spell slots.
Theres also only about half a dozen spells in the game right now that can trigger Dim the Light at all. That's more than a bit limiting.
If focus spells are a fixed balance factor that give the sorcerer his power, having one that's unusable at first and rarely usable later on is just terrible.
I know this is an old thread, but it’s only one on the forums about this particular spell. I’m also trying to wrap my head around this. Is it possible that Dim the Light could trigger itself? It actually has the Darkness trait and is a focus spell. So you cast it and hide as a reaction? I honestly don’t think this works as written, but I don’t feel that it’s particularly overpowered to use a focus point to be able to attempt to hide without immediate cover. I guess like others I’m just trying to figure the though process behind this spell.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Doc Midnight wrote: I know this is an old thread, but it’s only one on the forums about this particular spell. I’m also trying to wrap my head around this. Is it possible that Dim the Light could trigger itself? It actually has the Darkness trait and is a focus spell. So you cast it and hide as a reaction? I honestly don’t think this works as written, but I don’t feel that it’s particularly overpowered to use a focus point to be able to attempt to hide without immediate cover. I guess like others I’m just trying to figure the though process behind this spell. The spell is a reaction, so you can't cast it without the trigger happening first. Unless you have two reactions and two focus points, it can't trigger on itself. Also, it only lets you Hide, which means you don't actually move anywhere.
The spell works better at higher levels when more spells with the dark descriptor are available, like Chilling Darkness for example. There are currently 8 normal spells that trigger this spell, and 11 Focus Spells. I think that's plenty of options that can be used to trigger the spell.
Also, it works great for Darkness. Spend your three actions to cast it on your location, then use the spell to immediately Hide so you become Undetected. Unless an enemy had Darkvision they would lose track of your location since they are "blind" (making you Hidden to them) and you successfully hid (Making you Undetected).
I'm new to Pathfinder 2e and very much want to make a Shadow Sorcerer.
Has anyone had any luck addressing the issue with "Dim the Lights".
TLDR: Since there are no level one or level two spells with darkness or shadow in the Players Guide, its is impossible to cast "Dim the Lights" at early levels because there is no way to trigger the reaction.
The Shadow Sorcerer subclass gets their focus spell at level one but has no way to use their focus spell until level five.
While I enjoy playing challanging classes, this is a class feature that is completely unusable for a long time after you get it.
Was this an oversight or is this intentional?
Has anyone gotten a response from Paizo, or have they made any statements about it?
DM20 wrote: I'm new to Pathfinder 2e and very much want to make a Shadow Sorcerer.
Has anyone had any luck addressing the issue with "Dim the Lights".
TLDR: Since there are no level one or level two spells with darkness or shadow in the Players Guide, its is impossible to cast "Dim the Lights" at early levels because there is no way to trigger the reaction.
The Shadow Sorcerer subclass gets their focus spell at level one but has no way to use their focus spell until level five.
While I enjoy playing challanging classes, this is a class feature that is completely unusable for a long time after you get it.
Was this an oversight or is this intentional?
Has anyone gotten a response from Paizo, or have they made any statements about it?
You are not restricted to spells from the APG. Even if you don't own the books they're from, you can use them from Archives of Nethys. There are few qualifying spells a low level shadow sorcerer can access printed now, but they are:
Rank 1:
-Penumbral Shroud from Lost Omens: Gods & Magic. The blurb at the beginning of the spells section says they're "often associated with the deities of the Inner Sea region" but they're not Uncommon so should be accessible to all
Rank 2:
-technically Darkness, but the OP addressed its impracticality
-Umbral Extraction from Secrets of Magic, and any stolen spell you cast from its temporary spell slot gains the shadow trait and so qualifies as well
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Baarogue wrote: You are not restricted to spells from the APG. Even if you don't own the books they're from, you can use them from Archives of Nethys. That is accurate most of the time. Unless the character is in PFS.
And that still doesn't address the problem that all of those spells listed cost two actions to cast. Casting Dim the Light is at least a reaction. That will leave you with only one action to get somewhere with actual cover or concealment in order to stay hidden - assuming that your stealth checks all succeed.
Yeah, I hold Shadow Bloodline in pretty low regard because of these problems with Dim the Light. Other than that, the bloodline is fine. But you are effectively playing a Sorcerer without a useful focus spell. At least for the early levels.
Finoan wrote: Baarogue wrote: You are not restricted to spells from the APG. Even if you don't own the books they're from, you can use them from Archives of Nethys. That is accurate most of the time. Unless the character is in PFS.
And that still doesn't address the problem that all of those spells listed cost two actions to cast. Casting Dim the Light is at least a reaction. That will leave you with only one action to get somewhere with actual cover or concealment in order to stay hidden - assuming that your stealth checks all succeed.
Yeah, I hold Shadow Bloodline in pretty low regard because of these problems with Dim the Light. Other than that, the bloodline is fine. But you are effectively playing a Sorcerer without a useful focus spell. At least for the early levels. I appreciate the reply, we do have access to other books, but from a game design perspective, the lack of any triggering spell in the books required to play begs the question, "is this intentional or an oversight that needs to be corrected?"
If the spell is intended to be unusable at lower levels, I'm fine with that, but it seems entirely plausible at this time that the lack of triggering spells was just overlooked.
My goal is to just find out if Paizo has addressed this in any format anywhere in the past.
The issue for me is not about how useful the spell is, but rather the fact that it is not usable.
I emailed Paizo on April 19th and didn't get a reply, or even an automated response acknowledging my email. Next step is going to have to be hand writing them a letter.
DM20 wrote: If the spell is intended to be unusable at lower levels, I'm fine with that, but it seems entirely plausible at this time that the lack of triggering spells was just overlooked.
My goal is to just find out if Paizo has addressed this in any format anywhere in the past.
I haven't seen anything noting it one way or the other.
DM20 wrote: I emailed Paizo on April 19th and didn't get a reply, or even an automated response acknowledging my email. Next step is going to have to be hand writing them a letter. Well, you can if you want. I wouldn't expect much from that either.
The game rules already cover scenarios like this. The First Rule basically says that if there is something in the rules that your group finds underwhelming, change it at your table.
Some suggestions:
* Get a different bloodline focus spell. Maybe a cleric focus spell or witch focus spell that looks like it meets the theme.
* Tweak Dim the Light so that it is able to be used. Remove the spell trait from the requirement and make it only require that it be a spell cast from your Sorcerer spell slots.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
If Paizo published a bad option, it was probably "intended" to be bad in asmuch as no one really thought about it too deeply and they aren't going to fix it later. This is especially true of the APG and extra extra true if it was in Firebrands.
Maybe Shadow will be an included bloodline in Player Core 2. Otherwise it's just bad.
Finoan wrote: * Tweak Dim the Light so that it is able to be used. Remove the spell trait from the requirement and make it only require that it be a spell cast from your Sorcerer spell slots. We tweaked it to also work just when you are in shadow, no casting required at all. Which makes it not nothing: Hide in plain sight, Hide for a reaction instead of an action.
I still haven't used it basically at all during 1-10 lvl campaign.
(Well, that's probably more because I don't know what to use instant stealth for, but still.)
Finoan wrote: DM20 wrote: If the spell is intended to be unusable at lower levels, I'm fine with that, but it seems entirely plausible at this time that the lack of triggering spells was just overlooked.
My goal is to just find out if Paizo has addressed this in any format anywhere in the past.
I haven't seen anything noting it one way or the other.
DM20 wrote: I emailed Paizo on April 19th and didn't get a reply, or even an automated response acknowledging my email. Next step is going to have to be hand writing them a letter. Well, you can if you want. I wouldn't expect much from that either.
The game rules already cover scenarios like this. The First Rule basically says that if there is something in the rules that your group finds underwhelming, change it at your table.
Some suggestions:
* Get a different bloodline focus spell. Maybe a cleric focus spell or witch focus spell that looks like it meets the theme.
* Tweak Dim the Light so that it is able to be used. Remove the spell trait from the requirement and make it only require that it be a spell cast from your Sorcerer spell slots. Update: Paizo replied to my email. :)
They were not able to provide a rules update and said the forum was the best place to hear back from a designer or developer. Super appreciative of the reply.
DM20 wrote: Finoan wrote: DM20 wrote: If the spell is intended to be unusable at lower levels, I'm fine with that, but it seems entirely plausible at this time that the lack of triggering spells was just overlooked.
My goal is to just find out if Paizo has addressed this in any format anywhere in the past.
I haven't seen anything noting it one way or the other.
DM20 wrote: I emailed Paizo on April 19th and didn't get a reply, or even an automated response acknowledging my email. Next step is going to have to be hand writing them a letter. Well, you can if you want. I wouldn't expect much from that either.
The game rules already cover scenarios like this. The First Rule basically says that if there is something in the rules that your group finds underwhelming, change it at your table.
Some suggestions:
* Get a different bloodline focus spell. Maybe a cleric focus spell or witch focus spell that looks like it meets the theme.
* Tweak Dim the Light so that it is able to be used. Remove the spell trait from the requirement and make it only require that it be a spell cast from your Sorcerer spell slots. Update: Paizo replied to my email. :)
They were not able to provide a rules update and said the forum was the best place to hear back from a designer or developer. Super appreciative of the reply. Thanks, I will likely play rules as written, I don't mind playing an unoptimized character. Im just trying to find out the intent of the focus power and notify the devs/designers if this was not the intent.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
