| Ravingdork |
The feat's wording changes based on whether you're a sorcerer or a wizard.
Does this mean it's actually two feats? Or is it just one feat that is simply being contextual?
If it is the latter, can my sorcerer, who possesses sorcerer Counterspell, and who has invested heavily into the wizard multiclass archetype, counterspell like a sorcerer AND like a wizard? Or is she forced to counterspell only as a sorcerer, or take the feat twice to be able to do both?
Counterspell (Source)
[Abjuration] [Sorcerer]
Requirements You have an unexpended spell slot you could use to cast the triggering spell.
Trigger A creature casts a spell that you have in your repertoire.
When a foe Casts a Spell you know and you can see its manifestations, you can use your own magic to disrupt it. You expend one of your spell slots to counter the triggering creature’s casting of a spell that you have in your repertoire. You lose your spell slot as if you had cast the triggering spell. You then attempt to counteract the triggering spell.
Special This feat has the trait corresponding to the tradition of spells you cast (arcane, divine, natural, or occult).
Counterspell (Source)
[Abjuration] [Arcane] [Witch] [Wizard]
Trigger A creature Casts a Spell that you have prepared.
When a foe Casts a Spell and you can see its manifestations, you can use your own magic to disrupt it. You expend a prepared spell to counter the triggering creature’s casting of that same spell. You lose your spell slot as if you had cast the triggering spell. You then attempt to counteract the triggering spell.
| NemoNoName |
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I mean, you could - the feats are even named differently on Archive of Nethys: Counterspell (Prepared) and Counterspell (Spontaneous).
Bigger issue is... Why would you ever want to take these feats in the first place. They are almost useless until you hit level 12 as a Wizard and get the Clever Counterspell.
| Ravingdork |
If it came down to it, could you even take the feat twice? Feats don't typically allow that unless explicitly stated as being allowed.
It would probably help if you shared the text and pointed out the differences.
It sure would! I've edited the OP to include such.
| Qaianna |
I'd agree on these being two separate feats. They have different requirements, different triggers, different effects, and different traits (one has Sorcerer, other has Witch and Wizard -- guess no counterspell love for clerics, bards, or druids). The idea of naming them both Counterspell was probably iffy but you have to do something. Archive of Nethys's method is probably best if you're going to grab both spell lists for counterspelling.
| mrspaghetti |
I mean, you could - the feats are even named differently on Archive of Nethys: Counterspell (Prepared) and Counterspell (Spontaneous).
Bigger issue is... Why would you ever want to take these feats in the first place. They are almost useless until you hit level 12 as a Wizard and get the Clever Counterspell.
I'm not so sure about that. Chances are that popular spells for PCs are also popular with the enemy. So there's a good chance the bad guy will try to use spells you will have prepared if you're a wizard. If you can Counterspell his 2- or 3-action Magic Missile / Flaming Sphere / Fireball / Lightning Bolt etc., using only a reaction on your part, that's a big win. He loses pretty much his whole turn, and your party doesn't suffer the damage or other bad effects of his spell. And since Counterspell specifies the following:
"You lose your spell slot as if you had cast the triggering spell",
by my reading that means you can still use Drain Arcane Bond to cast the spell you "lost" whenever your turn comes.
| NemoNoName |
I'm not so sure about that. Chances are that popular spells for PCs are also popular with the enemy. So there's a good chance the bad guy will try to use spells you will have prepared if you're a wizard. If you can Counterspell his 2- or 3-action Magic Missile / Flaming Sphere / Fireball / Lightning Bolt etc., using only a reaction on your part, that's a big win. He loses pretty much his whole turn, and your party doesn't suffer the damage or other bad effects of his spell.
You still use up your slot, and you don't automatically dispel. Instead, you have to succeed at the counteracting check vs the Spells DC.
Which sounds good until you realise NPC DCs are actually higher than PC values, so you have less than 50% chance if you use equal level slot.
| mrspaghetti |
mrspaghetti wrote:I'm not so sure about that. Chances are that popular spells for PCs are also popular with the enemy. So there's a good chance the bad guy will try to use spells you will have prepared if you're a wizard. If you can Counterspell his 2- or 3-action Magic Missile / Flaming Sphere / Fireball / Lightning Bolt etc., using only a reaction on your part, that's a big win. He loses pretty much his whole turn, and your party doesn't suffer the damage or other bad effects of his spell.You still use up your slot, and you don't automatically dispel. Instead, you have to succeed at the counteracting check vs the Spells DC.
Which sounds good until you realise NPC DCs are actually higher than PC values, so you have less than 50% chance if you use equal level slot.
I guess that is true, but I'm thinking situations like that would be prime candidates for a Hero Point re-roll. So in practice, much better than 50% odds in those critical spots.
| mrspaghetti |
So now we have a class feat that requires a skill feat, luck to set up, spend a daily resource and potentially another resource. Still leaving ~25% chance failure.
It may not come up very often, but when it does it can be a game changer. Avoiding a spell that wrecks the party is much preferable to recovering from that same spell.
| manbearscientist |
Just to be clear, I don't think Counterspelling should succeed automatically. I just think it shouldn't be a feat, but rather, something you can always try and do.
I'm fine with the current implementation. A successful Counterspell (not even mentioning Reflect Spell) is the best reaction in the game by a significant margin. Spells are just too much of an action economy investment to lose to a reaction, particularly in a boss type scenario where the party can try multiple times to have success.
If access was easier or more general, spellcasters simply couldn't feasibly be used as boss monsters. That's ... not good. A player reaction should be worth less than a player action, not more than a boss turn.
And if anything, this is easier than 1E. There, you had to ready an action to counterspell, in addition to identifying the spell and casting the same spell. It took a mythic feat to counter a spell with 'just' a spell of the same school.
The current implementation is niche, but it is thematic and occasionally allows players to do something incredibly powerful without going so far as to almost certainly make spellcasting near worthless at an action economy disadvantage.
| Exton Land |
I mean, you could - the feats are even named differently on Archive of Nethys: Counterspell (Prepared) and Counterspell (Spontaneous).
Bigger issue is... Why would you ever want to take these feats in the first place. They are almost useless until you hit level 12 as a Wizard and get the Clever Counterspell.
As others have said, you're likely to have some of the same spells prepared as who you're fighting, like Fireball which can be a big winner for the party when you counteract it. But even more noticeable, this feat (both versions) applies to Cantrips, which can be handy even at low levels!
| mrspaghetti |
NemoNoName wrote:As others have said, you're likely to have some of the same spells prepared as who you're fighting, like Fireball which can be a big winner for the party when you counteract it. But even more noticeable, this feat (both versions) applies to Cantrips, which can be handy even at low levels!I mean, you could - the feats are even named differently on Archive of Nethys: Counterspell (Prepared) and Counterspell (Spontaneous).
Bigger issue is... Why would you ever want to take these feats in the first place. They are almost useless until you hit level 12 as a Wizard and get the Clever Counterspell.
The only thing that makes me wonder if that is correct is the following
"You lose your spell slot as if you had cast the triggering spell."
Since cantrips don't really use slots, I'm not sure if the intent was to allow countering cantrips or not, but I certainly don't see a good reason why it shouldn't be allowed.