Sorcerer casting

[RagingBarb]

Can anyone confirm if you can cast lower level spells using a higher level spell slot? I.E, using a 3rd level spell slot to cast a 2nd level spell?

[breithauptclan]

As a sorcerer:

If you have the 3rd level version of the spell on your repertoire, then you can cast it with a 3rd level spell slot.

If you only know the 2nd level version of the spell, then no, you can't cast it with a 3rd level spell slot...

Unless you pick that spell as your 2nd level signature spell. Then you effectively know that spell at all of its valid levels and can cast it at any of those spell levels.

Relevant Rule

[Nefreet]

If you could automatically heighten every spell as a Sorcerer, the Signature Spell class feature wouldn't do anything for you.

[Perpdepog]

I don't think the OP is talking about free heightening, just using a higher-level spell slot to cast a lower-level spell. Using 3rd and 4th-level slots to cast 2nd-level Invisibility, for example.

[Nefreet]

Wizards have an Arcane Thesis that lets you swap 2 lower level spell slots for 1 that is two levels higher (or one 1st level spell slot for two cantrips, which IMO is more useful). But that doesn't sound like what you're asking.

In this Edition, as far as I can tell, casting lower level spells in higher level spell slots requires heightening. I *think* you can do that regardless of whether or not the spell has a heightened version, but a Sorcerer would still have to have that level in their repetoire.

They couldn't just freely know every spell at every level (I'm open to being corrected, though).

[Blave]

Nefreet wrote:

I *think* you can do that regardless of whether or not the spell has a heightened version.

All spells can be heightened. Can be important to resist cpunteract effects.

[Nefreet]

That's what I keep hearing, but I haven't seen the evidence for it myself, so I wanted to leave myself an out in case that wasn't actually true.

[thenobledrake]

Nefreet wrote:

That's what I keep hearing, but I haven't seen the evidence for it myself, so I wanted to leave myself an out in case that wasn't actually true.

Page 299 of the Core Rulebook, last sentence of the first paragraph under "Heightened Spells".

[CaffeinatedNinja]

I seem to recall reading some guidance somewhere that you can do this. What you are doing is expending a lvl 2 spell slot to cast a lvl 1 spell. The spell is not heightened.

[Exton Land]

Core rule book is specific (pg299)
"If you’re a spontaneous spellcaster, you must know a spell at the specific level that you want to cast it in order to heighten it. You can add a spell to your spell repertoire at more than a single level so that you have more options when casting it. For example, if you added fireball to your repertoire as a 3rd-level spell and again as a 5th-level spell, you could cast it as a 3rd-level or a 5th-level spell; however, you couldn’t cast it as a 4th-level spell. Many spontaneous spellcasting classes provide abilities like the signature spells class feature, which allows you to cast a limited number of spells as heightened versions even if you know the spell at only a single level."

So you can only cast say magic missile as a 2nd level spell if you A) took it at level 1 and as a signature spell or B) took magic missile as a level 2 spell.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Exton Land wrote:

Core rule book is specific (pg299)

"If you’re a spontaneous spellcaster, you must know a spell at the specific level that you want to cast it in order to heighten it. You can add a spell to your spell repertoire at more than a single level so that you have more options when casting it. For example, if you added fireball to your repertoire as a 3rd-level spell and again as a 5th-level spell, you could cast it as a 3rd-level or a 5th-level spell; however, you couldn’t cast it as a 4th-level spell. Many spontaneous spellcasting classes provide abilities like the signature spells class feature, which allows you to cast a limited number of spells as heightened versions even if you know the spell at only a single level."

So you can only cast say magic missile as a 2nd level spell if you A) took it at level 1 and as a signature spell or B) took magic missile as a level 2 spell.

Agreed. But I think he can use a 2nd lvl spell slot to cast magic missile as a first level spell.

[thenobledrake]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Agreed. But I think he can use a 2nd lvl spell slot to cast magic missile as a first level spell.

I'm confused as to why you've just said what is effectively "Agreed. But I disagree."

The rules say what you can do. They say you spend a spell slot of level X and cast a spell of level X - they never add "...or of level Y" because they never say anything about spending a higher-level spell slot to cast a spell except when they talk about heightening spells.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

thenobledrake wrote:

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Agreed. But I think he can use a 2nd lvl spell slot to cast magic missile as a first level spell.

I'm confused as to why you've just said what is effectively "Agreed. But I disagree."

The rules say what you can do. They say you spend a spell slot of level X and cast a spell of level X - they never add "...or of level Y" because they never say anything about spending a higher-level spell slot to cast a spell except when they talk about heightening spells.

Because you said cast magic missile, which you only know as a 1st lvl spell AS a second level spell with a 2nd level spell slot. That isn't allowed unless it is signature or you know it twice.

But you can cast magic missile as a lvl 1 spell with a second level spell slot. (I know magic missile doesn't heighten at lvl 2, but still a distinction)

Here is a dev comment confirming it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/fmateq/can_you_cast_a_1st_le vel_spell_using_a_2nd_level/fl9d4hq/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source= share

[thenobledrake]

...I really wish guys in position to make official rules calls for games would stop making them through entirely unofficial channels. Makes it impossible to tell the difference between their personal opinion or take as a GM and their statement being a genuinely official statement of the intent behind a rule.

And if this is the official take, it means there is errata needed because the text in the books doesn't even imply this result let alone actually state it.

[Themetricsystem]

thenobledrake wrote:

...I really wish guys in position to make official rules calls for games would stop making them through entirely unofficial channels. Makes it impossible to tell the difference between their personal opinion or take as a GM and their statement being a genuinely official statement of the intent behind a rule.

And if this is the official take, it means there is errata needed because the text in the books doesn't even imply this result let alone actually state it.

I totally agree, the question itself was INCREDIBLY vague and the answer ever more so, this feedback is honestly pointless from a mechanical perspective because it fails to actually address how or when this is or should be possible, not to mention opening up an immense amount of abuse for Spontaneous casters to really be a 1-trick pony without having to interface with the Signature Spell feature.

This direction is half-baked at best and useless in terms of being official guidance.

[Nefreet]

That is ironic, because Paizo's official policy is that nobody issues individual rulings.

But, it's good enough for me. Bookmarked.