How does a wizard gain access to new cantrips?

[Lucy_Valentine]

A wizard can learn spells from a spellbook, scroll, or other arcane writing. No problem.
So if a wizard wants to copy a level one spell, they can do it really easily by buying a scroll. Yay.

But you can't buy a scroll of a cantrip. So how do you add more cantrips to your spellbook? Sure, if you meet another wizard, you could copy theirs. But is there any other way?

In PF1 you could get scrolls of cantrips. You could also buy access to spellbooks by spending half the copying cost. Is there any equivalent in 2e, or specifically in PFS now?

[Gary Bush]

I don't recall where it says that cantrips can't be purchased as a scroll.

Also, this really is not a society specific question so flagging for the rules forums.

[Lucy_Valentine]

"A scroll can be Crafted to contain nearly any spell, so the types of scrolls available are limited only by the number of spells in the game. The exceptions are cantrips, focus spells, and rituals, none of which can be put on scrolls."

CRB, 564.

And it is PFS specific if PFS has a specific ruling. Which it might.

[Pirate Rob]

It does not.

[Gary Bush]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

"A scroll can be Crafted to contain nearly any spell, so the types of scrolls available are limited only by the number of spells in the game. The exceptions are cantrips, focus spells, and rituals, none of which can be put on scrolls."

CRB, 564.

And it is PFS specific if PFS has a specific ruling. Which it might.

Learned something new! Thank you!

So I think paying an "expert" to teach you the spell is valid.

[Lucy_Valentine]

Gary Bush wrote:

So I think paying an "expert" to teach you the spell is valid.

Cool. Where's that in the rulebook?

[Z...D...]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

So I think paying an "expert" to teach you the spell is valid.

Cool. Where's that in the rulebook?

pg 238 in CRB

Linkified

Be sure to have you favorite GM record/inital you attempts on the chronicles.

[Lucy_Valentine]

238 is just the learn a spell section. It doesn't say anything about hiring an expert to teach said spell. The table of costs and DCs relates to the material cost of your attempt to learn, it doesn't say it includes purchasing access to the spell.

[Nefreet]

Looks like you just need "someone" who has the spell known, or copy it from another spellbook.

I have seen people organizing groups together online specifically for the objective of exchanging spells.

This must be why.

But I agree this is not a Society-specific question, so to best help you get an answer, I will flag this for the Rules Forum.

[Lucy_Valentine]

But it is a society question. If this were a home game, I'd just ask my GM how much it costs to borrow a spellbook/expert for a while. I can't do that in PFS.

[Z...D...]

Maybe on your way back home from an adventure you come across a traveling mage. He may be some conjurer of cheap tricks and has the cantrip you want. You spend a hour talking with him and him showing you how the spell is performed. You attempt you tradition check of choice at DC 15. If you succeed, you pay the 2GP in material cost.

You all part ways and hopefully you call cross paths again.

IMO as long as you have normal access, as per character options, to the spell and pay the material cost listed in the learn a spell activity, you are fine. I see no need to double pay, especially a cantrip.

[Nefreet]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

But it is a society question. If this were a home game, I'd just ask my GM how much it costs to borrow a spellbook/expert for a while. I can't do that in PFS.

Not arguing with you. Just educating.

Society-specific topics include major or recurring NPCs, Chronicles, Boons, the Guide, the Seasonal objectives, etc, and things that can't be asked in other Forums.

Rules Questions have their own Forum.

Just because your rules question concerns your Society character does not make it a "Society-specific" question.

We are helping you by flagging your post to be moved.

[Jimmy the Green]

If Pathfinder 2.0 had a helpful cost table for access to spells, PFS could give you permission to use it, like PFS did for Pathfinder 1.0:

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fq#v5748eaic9q7s

But as far as we know, Pathfinder 2.0 doesn't. So unless it's made free (like rune transfers are in an as-yet-to-be-clarified way), it can't be done in PFS.

[Lucy_Valentine]

It specifically concerns the rules pf PFS play. In a home game I'd just ask my GM. And in the rules forum, people are just going to tell me to ask my GM. And my GM doesn't want to give an answer specifically because it's PFS. So yeah, let's go to the rules forum so I can waste more time getting no answer over there. Cool. Super user-friendly, this PFS lark.

[Exton Land]

Jimmy the Green wrote:

If Pathfinder 2.0 had a helpful cost table for access to spells, PFS could give you permission to use it, like PFS did for Pathfinder 1.0:

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fq#v5748eaic9q7s

But as far as we know, Pathfinder 2.0 doesn't. So unless it's made free (like rune transfers are in an as-yet-to-be-clarified way), it can't be done in PFS.

There are more than a few wizards running around who've traded spells in PF2 via their spell books. Since Learn a Spell is an exploration mode activity it can be done in the confines of a scenario. If this has explicitly been outlawed, would like to know :) since I've gotten my spellbook to over 50 spells this way so far. ::sheepish_grin::

[Jimmy the Green]

Exton Land wrote:

Jimmy the Green wrote:

If Pathfinder 2.0 had a helpful cost table for access to spells, PFS could give you permission to use it, like PFS did for Pathfinder 1.0:

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fq#v5748eaic9q7s

But as far as we know, Pathfinder 2.0 doesn't. So unless it's made free (like rune transfers are in an as-yet-to-be-clarified way), it can't be done in PFS.

There are more than a few wizards running around who've traded spells in PF2 via their spell books. Since Learn a Spell is an exploration mode activity it can be done in the confines of a scenario. If this has explicitly been outlawed, would like to know :) since I've gotten my spellbook to over 50 spells this way so far. ::sheepish_grin::

In PFS 1.0, the library at the Grand Lodge gave you access to copy spells from, which was a big improvement a large number of years ago. Dan Simons made some posts about it back in 2013.

In PFS 2.0, you have to find another player with a spellbook who knows the spell. Which you did. What PFS could do (if they chose to) is to make the same option available now to have a full library of spellbooks in the Grand Lodge again, lowering costs and making cantrips available to study.

[Nefreet]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

this PFS lark.

Tengu.

It sounds like you think it's impossible to learn new Cantrips. If that's true, ask yourself if that makes. If that's not true, then ask your next GM how they wish to rule it and move on.

That is perfectly acceptable.

PFS is not the "RAW Monster" that extremists seem to think it is.

Seems to me the only question is how much you pay. And that's fine. GMs rule lots of things differently. Just ask them how much, record it on your Chronicle, and if you find out later it was incorrect, adjust it.

The world won't end.

I have not played a wizard yet in PF2, but it seems to me that options include:

1) copying them from a fellow party member
2) copying them from a looted spellbook
3) copying them from someone at the Grand Lodge (no surcharge)
4) copying them from someone at the Grand Lodge (surcharge)

But the answer shouldn't probably be "No, not at all."

[Lucy_Valentine]

And if my GM says they don't want to rule on that because they don't think PFS allows such things?

[Xathos of Varisia]

I am hoping we see the Grand Library returning in the upcoming Lost Omens book, Pathfinder Society. That would give us a lot of clarification for where to get spells, etc.

[NECR0G1ANT]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

A wizard can learn spells from a spellbook, scroll, or other arcane writing. No problem.

So if a wizard wants to copy a level one spell, they can do it really easily by buying a scroll. Yay.

But you can't buy a scroll of a cantrip. So how do you add more cantrips to your spellbook? Sure, if you meet another wizard, you could copy theirs. But is there any other way?

I don't think there is a way of using Learn A Spell to add cantrips to your spellbook (besides asking another PC). Normally it falls under the category of 'Ask your GM' but, as you correctly note, that isn't ideal in PFS.

You could always take Cantrip Expansion or a similar ancestry feat.

[Nefreet]

Lucy_Valentine wrote:

And if my GM says they don't want to rule on that because they don't think PFS allows such things?

That isn't a valid answer.

Ask them if they truly believe it is impossible for a Wizard to ever learn new Cantrips.

If they disagree, which hopefully they do, then ask them how much they would charge. Pay that, record it, and if you find out later the amount is incorrect, adjust it.

[Nefreet]

Like, this discussion both depresses me and angers me that people have set up these personal barriers, based on zero evidence, that then inhibit other people from enjoying the game.

[Nefreet]

Also, another reason to move this over to the Rules Discussion Forum. Because it doesn't help anyone sitting here.

[David knott 242]

In my home campaign, gaining access to other wizards' spellbooks hasn't been an issue because we seem to fight and kill a lot of wizards. Those looted spellbooks give us more spells than we know what to do with.

And that also makes it easy to find non-hostile wizards willing to exchange spells, because they usually get more out of the exchange than the PC wizards do.

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

From what I yave seen in PFS though there are not many looted spellbook options.

[Ascalaphus]

Have I overlooked something, or is this easier than I expected? Looking at the requirements in Learn A Spell, I see:

Quote:

Spend 1 hour per level of the spell, during which you must remain in conversation with a person who knows the spell or have the magical writing in your possession.

It doesn't say that person has to be the same class or even same tradition as you. So a wizard who wants to learn Produce Flame can just have a chat with a druid.

Did I miss something or does this actually make it really easy to get your hands on spells that are also on the divine or primal lists?

[Nefreet]

Access isn't the question being asked.

Apparently GMs are forbidding learning new spells because they are unsure about the cost (whether or not you have to "hire" someone who knows the spell).

My point is that question doesn't matter.

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

I think access is the root of the question.

You can learn spells from anyone that that knows them (whatever class or spellcasting tradition) so long as the spell you are learning is on the list for your tradition.

Does that oracle know Shield? You can learn it from them. Does that fighter that took a dedication in druid know/prepare Produce Flame? You can learn it from them.

Outside of that I do not see an option to gain access to cantrips.

This character played with several wizards and other spellcasters to expand his spellbook. Fear not, in PFS you will have that opportunity as well.

[Gary Bush]

Taking a step back to re-look at what is happening.

A PC wants to learn a new Cantrip. Since we can't get cantrips from scrolls, we need to find someone who knows the spell. Another PC can be used. All that is needed is for the the PC learning the spell is to pay the cost (2GP for 1st level and cantrips) found on table 4-3 and make the easy DC15 check. The GM would initial that the check was made and on you go.

But what if no PC has the cantrip that a character wants?
I realized that learning a spell is a SKILL check. The skill used depends on the tradition. An expert hireling can be hired for 1 day for 2 sp. So to learn a spell from an NPC would cost what is on table 4-3 please the cost of the expert hireling. For a cantrip, that would be 2.2 gp. What is nice is if the the character's roll did not go well, they still have the hireling for the day so can make several attempts if needed. The GM would initial on this of course.

This could be done as part of downtime to reduce the cost of materials per those rules. Or if there is time in the adventure, I don't see any problems with doing this. Would depend on the availability of the expert hireling.

So agree with Nefreet, this is a rules question, not a PFS specific question.

[Nefreet]

I like that breakdown. Thank you.

[Gary Bush]

Nefreet wrote:

I like that breakdown. Thank you.

I think I must have died and gone to heaven!!! LOL

It was funny because I was going to disagree with you. So I started to build my case, as I know I have to do with you because of your knowledge of the rules, when I realized that a skill check is need.

So I found myself changing course.

Thanks for the support. It does mean something, at least to me.

[Hmm]

It's always interesting to see where we all land in the matter of rules arguments, and to revel in those times when our interests align.

Hmm

[Gary Bush]

Hmm wrote:

It's always interesting to see where we all land in the matter of rules arguments, and to revel in those times when our interests align.

Hmm

Agree. The discussions we, as a group, have here only leads to a better understanding of the rules.

[Nefreet]

Gary Bush wrote:

because of your knowledge of the rules

This made me laugh. Thank you for believing in me, but my track record with this edition has gotten off to a rocky start. My only consistent proficiency is poking the hornet's nest.

At least in this edition, both the Guide and the Core Rulebook support moving away from the toxic ideology of "RAW". They both, instead, empower GMs to adjudicate their own rulings.

This is a marked difference from PFS1, and PF1, and I think a lot of players and GMs are still getting used to the improvements.

[Azothath]

In PFS PF1 the process for Wizards was clear (starting spells and learning(scribing) new spells or 2 free spells learned per level) and there were several methods (with different costs) to learn new spells (including cantrips). There are various threads on that topic.
Note: It is best to look up the spell on Archive of Nethys(AoN) to check PFS status AND if it is a Racial spell that requires the PC to be that specific named race or have some option to allow access to that specific Racial spell.

I can't comment on PFS PF2 at this point in time.
The mechanics should be outlined in the CRB2, the PF2 Rules forum, or above at 2 and 2.2GP for a cantrip.
For PFS specifics PFS 2ndEd PF Training.

Either way, Organized Play(PFS) runs on documentation so you will want the specific information, cost, and GM signature on your chronicle if needed for future reference.
AKA - Always get a receipt!

[Xathos of Varisia]

Right now I am learning new spells via the two per level, school scrolls, other wizards in the party's spellbooks, and scrolls I either purchased or found in game. I agree that we should be able to learn spells from other casters who have them. My biggest factor is cost at this point. I love having a lot of spells, but it costs some serious gold to get them.

The biggest change I've struggled with in my bookkeeping is that you don't lose the scroll when you use it to learn the spell. I've got a large stack of scrolls as a result of that. I really need to use them in game play.

We can learn cantrips from spellbooks and other casters. The scroll option does not exist for cantrips. But so far I have not needed to add a cantrip to my list.

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

Gary Bush wrote:

...What is nice is if the the character's roll did not go well, they still have the hireling for the day so can make several attempts if needed. The GM would initial on this of course.

This could be done as part of downtime to reduce the cost of materials per those rules. Or if there is time in the adventure, I don't see any problems with doing this. Would depend on the availability of the expert hireling...

I'm down with the expert hireling thing but feel that some things need to be clarified in Gary's words.

1) If you fail (or crit fail) to learn a spell, you cannot attempt to learn the spell again until you've gained a new level. (Magical Shorthand alters this to 7 days)

2) Learning a spell is an exploration activity. Magical Shorthand allows the learning of a spell to be a downtime activity. That said, I see no reason why one couldn't Earn Income for all but 1 downtime day and use the gp gained to help pay the scribing costs to learn the spell on the last day(if you do not have Magical Shorthand).

[Pirate Rob]

You have to earn income last rather than first.

[Gary Bush]

Thanks Leo for the clarification.

Also I should have used skilled instead of expert for the hireling.