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So one of the archetypes I was most looking forward to was the dual-weapon warrior because I generally like playing characters that wield two weapons. I am, unfortunately, a little dissatisfied with the early level feats. While the dedication feat is especially potent, I find the two fourth level feats only useful for two particular playstyles, which if not useful, can result in some dead feats for that level, slowing progression if another archetype is desired. My question is why is there not a more universal feat for dual wielding at fourth level, one that can solve a problem I saw with the system from its public announcement with the playtest: a feat that allows two weapons to be drawn as a single action. Every other martial style only needs a single action to ready all the weapons they need, whether drawing a two-handed weapon, a single melee weapon, or a ranged weapon. Early level feats just feel sort of sparse for an archetype dedicated to dual wielding when compared to archetypes like the marshal.
Tldr: The dual-weapon warrior should have a fourth level feat that allows it to draw two weapons, or at least something that is more generally useful than a two-weapon throwing and ranged/melee dual wielding.
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Huh yeah both of the level 4's are not great if you aren't taking those ranged options. I guess you could take one of your class feats at the level? finish the rest of the dedication out with the 6 ad 8th etc.? It is kind of a weird decision on their part to have both the 4th level options be for ranged.
Yeah, I think you're just stuck with going for normal class feat on level 4.
I suppose you could argue that if the class is going to dual wield they should have a back up option for ranged combat from a be prepared perspective. Although it's not uncommon for people in my group to not keep a ranged weapon... unfortunately for them..
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the only thing i don't like about the dedication is that it gives double slice at level 2. For the player that is a dual wielder, they probably already took that at 1st level if they are a fighter, so they would need to retrain it. At 4th level the dedication feats are dead to most, but the fighter class has twin parry, which is a nice chain to start. Seems like there is a decent choice for the fighter at least across most of the levels
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My problem is that even if you are building toward a dual throwing build, it still takes two actions to draw those two weapons, and it takes another round to draw two more weapons. Of course there are workarounds, such as having returning runes on both weapons, which is expensive with the potency rune costs of each weapon, or having the ricochet stance, which requires being in a rogue or fighter at level 8 and 6, respectively. The underlying concern that there is no way to draw two weapons and use those two weapon in the same turn, aside from having quick draw, which does not interact with any of the dual wielding feats and provokes attack of opportunity because it requires the user to be in range to attack with drawn melee weapons. Dual weapon warrior just seems largely underwhelming until level 10, when it gets Dual Weapon Blitz.
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My problem is that even if you are building toward a dual throwing build, it still takes two actions to draw those two weapons, and it takes another round to draw two more weapons. Of course there are workarounds, such as having returning runes on both weapons, which is expensive with the potency rune costs of each weapon, or having the ricochet stance, which requires being in a rogue or fighter at level 8 and 6, respectively. The underlying concern that there is no way to draw two weapons and use those two weapon in the same turn, aside from having quick draw, which does not interact with any of the dual wielding feats and provokes attack of opportunity because it requires the user to be in range to attack with drawn melee weapons. Dual weapon warrior just seems largely underwhelming until level 10, when it gets Dual Weapon Blitz.
shiruken is reload 0.
Which will also work with flurry of blows, or hunted shot.
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My problem is that even if you are building toward a dual throwing build, it still takes two actions to draw those two weapons, and it takes another round to draw two more weapons. Of course there are workarounds, such as having returning runes on both weapons, which is expensive with the potency rune costs of each weapon, or having the ricochet stance, which requires being in a rogue or fighter at level 8 and 6, respectively. The underlying concern that there is no way to draw two weapons and use those two weapon in the same turn, aside from having quick draw, which does not interact with any of the dual wielding feats and provokes attack of opportunity because it requires the user to be in range to attack with drawn melee weapons. Dual weapon warrior just seems largely underwhelming until level 10, when it gets Dual Weapon Blitz.shiruken is reload 0.
Which will also work with flurry of blows, or hunted shot.
I don't see how these interact with the Dual Throwing feat or even address the problems I mentioned. The monk can access the shuriken with a feat, but that still requires two shuriken with at least two runes each to use dual throwing. And the same applies to the ranger's hunted shot, except that ranger does not automatically have access to shuriken.
But that is besides the point. Why doesn't dual weapon warrior have any way of drawing weapons without expending 2/3 of its turn. The archetype doesn't even have access to quick draw.
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Cheesy, but if your base class (i.e. Rogue, Ranger) doesn't provide quickdraw, and you've selected the required dedication + 2 archetype feats, you can then take the "Duelist" archetype to get quickdraw. Still doesn't let you draw two weapons, but you can quickdraw and strike with one weapon, then quickdraw and strike with the second weapon (now you have two weapons in hand), then use your Dual wielding feats in future rounds (as a bonus, if you have a third action left in the first round, after quickdrawing the two weapons, you can use your third action for Twin Parry to immediately raise your AC!).
PS: And I agree the throwing feats stuck into the Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype seem clunky and ill-considered.
I don't see how these interact with the Dual Throwing feat or even address the problems I mentioned. The monk can access the shuriken with a feat, but that still requires two shuriken with at least two runes each to use dual throwing. And the same applies to the ranger's hunted shot, except that ranger does not automatically have access to shuriken.But that is besides the point. Why doesn't dual weapon warrior have any way of drawing weapons without expending 2/3 of its turn. The archetype doesn't even have access to quick draw.
it solves the drawing problem.
"This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action."It does not solve the magic items problem.
Though hunted shot only requires 1 shuriken, not 2.
Here is a build I worked on.
Half-Elf, Flurry Ranger
Ruby Phoenix background (shuriken)
1: Hunted Shot, Natural Ambition (gravity weapon)
2: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
4: Dual Thrower
5: Nimble Elf
6: Far Shot
8: Scouts Warning
9: Multitalented (Champion/Rogue)
10: Champion's Reaction/Nimble Dodge
12: Distracting Shot
13: Pinch Time (haste)
14: Dual Onslaught
16: Greater Distracting Shot
17: Heroic Presence
18: Double Prey
20: Legendary Shot
That said, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to have a general feat..
Dual draw, level 1.
1 action
You interact to draw 2 weapons, one in each hand.
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I don't think double throwing was intended to be core to the archetype, and the fact that you can build a character around it is just gravy. I mostly think it's intended to be just an extra option for the narrow selection of characters who just happen to go about their adventuring day with a weapon that can be thrown in each hand.
It works really great for our low level warrior muse bard with Juggler. Just need to find a better way than returning two weapons :(
Yes, if you drop the idea this archetype is for Fighters it makes much more sense.
Or a warrior bard.
dual throw + house of imaginary wall.
Juggler can also help.
At least once you get enough feats.