Surprise Attack--what does "acted" mean?

[SlackC]

The rules for Surprise Attack on P. 181 in the CRB say that creatures who have not yet "acted" get the flat-footed penalty. If I choose to Delay, have I acted? Is there a reason it's worded this way instead of being tied to initiative? What are the edge cases I should be thinking about?

[mrspaghetti]

SlackC wrote:

The rules for Surprise Attack on P. 181 in the CRB say that creatures who have not yet "acted" get the flat-footed penalty. If I choose to Delay, have I acted? Is there a reason it's worded this way instead of being tied to initiative? What are the edge cases I should be thinking about?

Delay (Free Action)

Source Core Rulebook pg. 470 1.1
Trigger Your turn begins.
You wait for the right moment to act. The rest of your turn doesn’t happen yet. Instead, you’re removed from the initiative order. You can return to the initiative order as a free action triggered by the end of any other creature’s turn. This permanently changes your initiative to the new position. You can’t use reactions until you return to the initiative order. If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.

When you Delay, any persistent damage or other negative effects that normally occur at the start or end of your turn occur immediately when you use the Delay action. Any beneficial effects that would end at any point during your turn also end. The GM might determine that other effects end when you Delay as well. Essentially, you can’t Delay to avoid negative consequences that would happen on your turn or to extend beneficial effects that would end on your turn.

I would say you have not acted if you Delay.

[Claxon]

Strict interpretation, delay isn't action so you would still be flat-footed.

As a GM though, I wouldn't run it that way and would say that delaying is enough to end your flat-footed condition.

[thenobledrake]

According to the "Understanding Actions" section of the rules, a free action is a type of action, so you've "acted" if you've taken one just like you have "acted" if you took a single action.

So the answer for Surprise Attack is that, generally, it'd be any creature that hasn't had their turn come up yet - but the edge cases are if a creature has a reaction or free action that can trigger before their turn it would count as having acted so Surprise Attack would no longer apply.

[TwilightKnight]

Claxon wrote:

Strict interpretation, delay isn't action so you would still be flat-footed.

Sorry, but that is wrong. Delay is listed as a basic ACTION and has the free ACTION icon. The fact that you don't perform anything that would be a visual activity does not change the fact that Delay is in fact an action, buy definition. Further, an action does not require a trait/tag such as move or attack, or manipulate.

[mrspaghetti]

thenobledrake wrote:

According to the "Understanding Actions" section of the rules, a free action is a type of action, so you've "acted" if you've taken one just like you have "acted" if you took a single action.

So the answer for Surprise Attack is that, generally, it'd be any creature that hasn't had their turn come up yet - but the edge cases are if a creature has a reaction or free action that can trigger before their turn it would count as having acted so Surprise Attack would no longer apply.

Ok, I'll go along with that.

[masda_gib]

What about free actions tied to rolling initiative?
Does using Scouts Warning or Stance Savant count as having acted? It should since they are free actions... you beat any initiative roll of the Rogue with them.

[Abyssalwyrm]

Flat-footed generally means you are incapable of effectively defend yourself. You are flanked, stunned or simply ^ surprised.
If you are willingly use delay action (even without using any other actions first) - you are well aware of the combat already. As such you wouldn't get flat-footed penalty (at least from surprised).

[Claxon]

TwilightKnight wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Strict interpretation, delay isn't action so you would still be flat-footed.

Sorry, but that is wrong. Delay is listed as a basic ACTION and has the free ACTION icon. The fact that you don't perform anything that would be a visual activity does not change the fact that Delay is in fact an action, buy definition. Further, an action does not require a trait/tag such as move or attack, or manipulate.

Sorry, I was thinking of PF1 where delay is listed as no action.

[thenobledrake]

masda_gib wrote:

What about free actions tied to rolling initiative?

Does using Scouts Warning or Stance Savant count as having acted? It should since they are free actions... you beat any initiative roll of the Rogue with them.

Yup, and those abilities are why Surprise Attack triggers based on whether your target has acted instead of just relying on initiative rolls directly.

Another time when it could matter to note the difference between having your initiative come up and when you've actually acted is if someone goes earlier in the round and inflicts Stunned 3+ on somebody, they'll still have not acted even after their first turn comes up in the initiative order.