Sorcerer Bloodline Granted Spells

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Do you always have to have the granted spells at the level they were granted to you at?

So for instance if I get charm at lvl 1, can I learn it at a higher level, and remove it from my lvl 1 known spells? Otherwise it is becomes rapidly useless as it is an incap spell.

[breithauptclan]

You can certainly learn them again at the higher level. You can also select them as a signature spell and cast them from any level.

I don't think you can unlearn them at the level that they are granted at in order to gain another freely chosen spell of that level.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Hope, not, that makes incap granted spells literally deadweight as you level.

[Nefreet]

How so?

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Nefreet wrote:

How so?

Well, spells with the incapacitation trait are pretty much ineffective unless the target’s level is no more than twice the spell’s level. So you really need to heighten it to your max spell level (or maybe one under.)

A spell like charm, lvl 1, is going to be literally useless at higher level being cast with a lvl 1 slot. Hence if you have charm at lvl 1, and can’t remove it, it is a dead spell taking up one of your four lvl 1 slots in your repertoire.

[breithauptclan]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

it is a dead spell taking up one of your four lvl 1 slots in your repertoire.

Heh. That is a bit of a mis-statement. You don't have 4 general purpose level 1 spell slots in your repertoire. You have 3. Plus your bloodline spell.

Just like Wizards don't have 4 level 1 general purpose spell slots to fill each morning. They have 3. Plus one limited-use spell slot if they chose a school, that can only be filled with a spell from that school.

So technically you aren't losing anything that you actually had. You are losing something that you thought you had or wished you had. Still feels bad, I know.

And like I mentioned earlier, it isn't completely dead weight. You can select the level 1 incapacitation spell as a signature spell for that level and cast it at your highest level spell slot. So you can pull off level 4 charm at class level 7 just fine. Just at the cost of using any of your other level 1 spells at full caster level.

[Nefreet]

Plus, you're not always going to be using your spells against significant enemies.

Don't want to pay the day laborers their extra rate to go adventuring with you?

Charm them.

[Ifusaso]

breithauptclan wrote:

You can certainly learn them again at the higher level.

By my reading, this is inaccurate. Can you cite anything that gives you access to Bloodline spells/says that they're on your spell list?

[Ascalaphus]

Ifusaso wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

You can certainly learn them again at the higher level.

By my reading, this is inaccurate. Can you cite anything that gives you access to Bloodline spells/says that they're on your spell list?

If they're not in your tradition, then I don't think you can freely learn them at different levels - if you really want to heighten them, you gotta make them signature spells.

[Themetricsystem]

Wait though... are there people saying that the Granted Bloodline Spells from Sorcerer (and by extension Witch Patrons, Cleric Domains and any other feature that take X Tradition Spells and adds it to Y Tradition Spellcaster's list) NOT typed as the PCs Tradition... but they're still functionally usable?

If so I am mightily confused as to how one would ever actually USE said Spells... As I have always understood it these kinds of features take Spells that are sourced from other Traditions and adds them to your List/Rep, it doesn't matter if they have the "right" Tradition or not because they can cast them and BY casting them they gain the Spellcasting Tradition of the Spellcasting source they're using...

Somebody help me understand the problem here, the rule lawyers on RPGSTACKEX are often SO far into the deep woods I often have a hard time parsing what their actual question is through the weeds.

[Nefreet]

Ifusaso wrote:

I find this extremely silly and would not expect a GM outside of organized play to restrict you from considering Granted Spells to be on your spell list

I wouldn't expect an Organized Play GM to restrict them, either ^_^

Themetricsystem wrote:

the rule lawyers on RPGSTACKEX are often SO far into the deep woods I often have a hard time parsing what their actual question is through the weeds.

I imagine that's because PF2 (and Society) have clauses throwing out so-called "RAW" interpretations and favoring common sense readings.

People who are only interested in sharing and enforcing their own literal interpretations need to utilize other sites outside of Paizo.

[Ifusaso]

Themetricsystem wrote:

If so I am mightily confused as to how one would ever actually USE said Spells... As I have always understood it these kinds of features take Spells that are sourced from other Traditions and adds them to your List/Rep, it doesn't matter if they have the "right" Tradition or not because they can cast them and BY casting them they gain the Spellcasting Tradition of the Spellcasting source they're using...

Actually, most things that add spells are "written correctly" such that this isn't an issue. For instance, the Cleric version is that

"Your deity also adds spells to your spell list. You can prepare these just like you can any spell on the divine spell list"

Whereas nowhere in sorcerer/bloodlines does it indicate that your "granted" spells are added to your list, just your Repertoire. They are in your Repertoire, so you can cast them with spell slots of their level, but I don't see any indication that you can take them at higher levels (not counting making them a Signature spell, which also seems valid).

I agree that sorcerers should be able to do so, but the point of rpg.stackexchange.com is to provide "correct" answers tempered by experience. In reality, the main reason I hopped over to these boards was to draw attention to what is probably a typo/accident that can be fixed with errata.

Nefreet wrote:

I imagine that's because PF2 (and Society) have clauses throwing out so-called "RAW" interpretations and favoring common sense readings.

I don't play Society so I wasn't aware of the clause you're referencing but I see a ton of questions referring to 'strict rules/RAW' or similar because a character needs to be 'Society legal'. Of course, this is how (I imagine) most home games (all, in my group's case) are run.

[thenobledrake]

Ifusaso wrote:

Whereas nowhere in sorcerer/bloodlines does it indicate that your "granted" spells are added to your list, just your Repertoire. They are in your Repertoire, so you can cast them with spell slots of their level, but I don't see any indication that you can take them at higher levels (not counting making them a Signature spell, which also seems valid).

In the Spell Repertoire section itself is the text "When you add spells, you might select a higher-level version of a spell you already know so that you can cast a heightened version of that spell." which covers being able to learn your granted spells at higher levels.

[Ifusaso]

"Might" doesn't confer allowance. That line is more of a suggestion of why you would choose to do so. If it was "may" then you might be on to something.

[thenobledrake]

Don't forget that the rules are written in casual language, so given this context "might" and "may" are effectively the same.

You have permission, and also aren't forced to do it, so you might.

[breithauptclan]

Ifusaso wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

You can certainly learn them again at the higher level.

By my reading, this is inaccurate. Can you cite anything that gives you access to Bloodline spells/says that they're on your spell list?

Certainly.

Tradition and School wrote:

Your class determines which tradition of magic your spells use. In some cases, such as when a cleric gains spells from their deity or when a sorcerer gets spells from their bloodline, you might be able to cast spells from a different spell list. In these cases, the spell uses your magic tradition, not the list the spell normally comes from. When you cast a spell, add your tradition’s trait to the spell.

When granted a spell of a different tradition because it is a bloodline spell, it also adds the spell to that tradition for you. Maybe not for everyone else in the world, but it is on that tradition list for you.

Spell Repertoire wrote:

The collection of spells you can cast is called your spell repertoire. At 1st level, you learn two 1st-level spells of your choice and four cantrips of your choice, as well as an additional spell and cantrip from your bloodline. You choose these from the common spells from the tradition corresponding to your bloodline, or from other spells from that tradition to which you have access.

And being on the tradition list for you is all that is required in order to learn them at a different level.

[breithauptclan]

There is also this:

Spell Repertoire wrote:

When you add spells, you might select a higher-level version of a spell you already know so that you can cast a heightened version of that spell.

So since you always know your bloodline spells, you can select them to add a higher level version of. This one doesn't mention any requirement of tradition when adding to repertoire.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah I guess if you really want to pay the price, learning at a higher level would be allowed. It's not exactly pleasant but it seems legit.

[Ifusaso]

I think breithauptclan's quote from Tradition and School "...the spell uses your tradition..." comes the closest to explicitly allowing it to work how it should. Thanks for pointing that out! It should still be more clear that that, like the Clerics' spells, but at least now it definitely seems intended, whereas "might" being the same as "may" is a pretty big stretch when they use more correct terms elsewhere.

[thenobledrake]

Again, I remind you that the rules are written in casual language.

How one thing is worded has no bearing on how another thing is worded, because the meaning is allowed to be the same despite the difference in wording, because that's how casual language works.

The writers shouldn't be any more expected to read unrelated sections of rules text than the players should to be able to figure out what they say.

[Nefreet]

Especially since every publication can have dozens of contributors, that may never work on another project, and for many of which English is not their primary language

[breithauptclan]

"many of whom..." Come on, I can't hope to understand you if you don't use perfect English grammar.

[/sarcasm]

[Nefreet]

Nope. That's RAW, now. It MUST be read like that ;-)

[Ifusaso]

thenobledrake wrote:

Again, I remind you that the rules are written in casual language.

I see what you're getting at, and I completely understand that they're not writing a technical document with strict conformity. However, when they use different words or phrasing that don't mean the same thing there is a problem.

In this case, the writer(s) for Cleric Deity spells wrote that the spells are on their spell list. The writer(s) for the Sorcerer Bloodline spells made absolutely no concrete connection that says that's true for Sorcerers as well. The word 'might' is used in relation to re-learning known spells, but 'might' does not convey allowance compared to a selection of other words (may, can, are allowed, etc). The spell 'uses your magic tradition' which doesn't mean its added to your Tradition (although it shows a strong correlation suggesting such).

I also know that groups need to interpret the rules in a way that works for them, and most groups will/probably should consider the granted spells to be on Sorcerers' spell list because it makes sense. However, the more correct phrasing that exists in the books, even if its not the same correct phrasing as elsewhere, helps groups by not having to "homerule"/"Rule 0" commonplace things like basic rules about a class's main feature.

[thenobledrake]

you are saying "they're not writing a technical document with strict conformity" and "but I'm going to read it like they did and insist the language isn't clear enough as a result."

And let me illustrate with a question:

How might you determine that "a higher-level version of a spell you already know" only applies selectively, rather than to all the spells in your repertoire?

[Ifusaso]

Firstly, I don't appreciate you pretending that I'm being unreasonable and I'm tempted not to engage with you because your response feels unnecessarily hostile. If you're more interested in assessing me than the topic at hand, then just don't post.

You bring up a fair point, but my issue isn't with the "spell you already know" portion. It's with the use of the word "might" before it, which does not convey allowance in commonly used English. If my son asked if he could go to the park, "You might go to the park." would not be an answer. Additionally, Paizo missed including any reference to granted spells being on their spell list. It seems balanced and obvious that that's the intent, but it's such a simple few words to include to clear it up.

I don't care what the words are "exactly". It's fine that the Bard's Spell Repertoire feature says "When you add spells, you might add a higher-level version of a spell you already have, so you can cast a heightened version of that spell." because "have" means the same thing to readers in this context. But the Sorcerer text is literally missing something that should be there (or be clarified that it's not there on purpose if I'm wrong).

[thenobledrake]

If your son asked what he could do with his afternoon free time, "you might go to the park" would be an answer though.

That's more the case of the language at play here (unless you've elsewhere forbidden your son from going to the park, at least).

That you know the spells granted by your bloodline is already covered by the text from Granted Spells telling you they are added to your Spell Repertoire, and by the text in the Sorcerer Spellcasting feature saying you have to know spells to cast them and you learn them from your Spell Repertoire feature. So all the spells in your Repertoire are, clearly but casually, spells that you know.

The language that you then claim to have a problem with, absent any text which mentions a separation between spells you know for this reason or spells you know for that reason, either permits any spell you know to be learned at a higher level for heightening, or permits none of them - because it doesn't say anything that even remotely resembles "unless they got added to your repertoire by [insert feature name here]"

[Squiggit]

Ifusaso wrote:

If my son asked if he could go to the park, "You might go to the park." would not be an answer.

Yeah, but I don't know anyone who'd parse "You might go to the park" to mean "You're not allowed to go to the park under any circumstances" either.

[breithauptclan]

You might select a higher-level version of a spell you already know. You might not. The choice is yours, but the option is there.

[Ascalaphus]

Squiggit wrote:

Ifusaso wrote:

If my son asked if he could go to the park, "You might go to the park." would not be an answer.

Yeah, but I don't know anyone who'd parse "You might go to the park" to mean "You're not allowed to go to the park under any circumstances" either.

You might very well think that :P

[Ifusaso]

breithauptclan wrote:

You might select a higher-level version of a spell you already know. You might not. The choice is yours, but the option is there.

And I'm not saying that it wasn't intended to mean that, necessarily... but other classes don't hinge on that very unclear message (that multiple people read very differently) to convey what should be a simple thing. A few words could fix it is all I'm saying.

[Ravingdork]

I'm currently playing an 8th-level dragon bloodline sorcerer that has cast resist energy exactly once in her whole career. She has other bonus spells that she has never cast.

Many are so situational that the situation in which they are designed for never comes up. Others, when the situation does come up, they're too low level to make any meaningful difference. Others have cool higher level effects, but they're not so worth it that it's worth spending one of my limited signature slots on it over other options.

Don't even get me started on Dragon Claws on a caster!

The pain caused by all the baggage is very real.

[thenobledrake]

Ifusaso wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

You might select a higher-level version of a spell you already know. You might not. The choice is yours, but the option is there.

And I'm not saying that it wasn't intended to mean that, necessarily... but other classes don't hinge on that very unclear message (that multiple people read very differently) to convey what should be a simple thing. A few words could fix it is all I'm saying.

Can't fix what isn't broken, and other classes aren't relevant because the game doesn't expect someone trying to figure out how a sorcerer works to read anything but sorcerer and the general rules sections referenced by it.

"other sentences are clearer." and "this sentence isn't clear." aren't actually synonymous phrases.

[breithauptclan]

Ifusaso wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

You might select a higher-level version of a spell you already know. You might not. The choice is yours, but the option is there.

And I'm not saying that it wasn't intended to mean that, necessarily... but other classes don't hinge on that very unclear message (that multiple people read very differently) to convey what should be a simple thing. A few words could fix it is all I'm saying.

But... It isn't unclear. That is literally what that sentence means.

And when comparing to other classes, they are prepared spellcasters. Heightening works differently for them since they only ever learn one version of the spell and choose the spell slot to prepare it in when they prepare spells during daily preparations. Their class features and feats that give off-tradition spells don't need to specify that they can learn the spell at different levels - because they don't do so. The Sorcerer and other spontaneous spellcasters are the ones that might (or might not) want to learn a spell at a different level than it is given to them.

And even if it was re-written to be more clear to you, then it would be unclear to someone else. Because English is terrible like that.

[breithauptclan]

Analyzing the English a bit more, I think it is that 'might' implies 'may'.

If you 'may' do something, that is giving permission. Desire to do it is not determined. So you might want to do it, or you might not want to do it, but in either case you may do it if you wish.

If you 'might' do something, you have permission by implication. Otherwise it wouldn't be stated as such.

I could say something like 'you might want to do that, but you are not allowed to.' But even then, the thing that you 'might' do is the wanting. You still have the ability to want to do it. You just are not allowed to actually do it. Also, I would have to specify that second part. Simply saying 'you might want to do that' has a very different meaning. That is implying that you have permission and stating that it is my recommendation that you do actually do the thing.

Examples:

"It is hot in here." "You may close the window." (if you want to)
"You might win an award for your design submission." (Possible, but can't be determined yet)
"We might go to the beach tomorrow." (Possible, but we haven't decided if we want to yet)
"You might close that door behind you." (very passive-agressive. Not only do you have permission to do it, but it is a threat of consequences if you don't do so)

[breithauptclan]

And the passive-agressive threat of consequences in this sentence

Spell Repertoire wrote:

When you add spells, you might select a higher-level version of a spell you already know so that you can cast a heightened version of that spell.

is that if you don't you will end up with spells that are not useful because they can only be cast at a low level, and that you can't remove from your repertoire and replace with something else.

Not the worst consequences, but something to be aware of.

[Errenor]

breithauptclan wrote:

if you don't you will end up with spells that are not useful because they can only be cast at a low level, and that you can't remove from your repertoire and replace with something else.

And if you do, you'd have two slots in your repertoire filled with the same spell, because "you can’t swap out bloodline spells". So making it a signature spell might still be a better solution. Tough choice.

[breithauptclan]

Errenor wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

if you don't you will end up with spells that are not useful because they can only be cast at a low level, and that you can't remove from your repertoire and replace with something else.

And if you do, you'd have two slots in your repertoire filled with the same spell, because "you can’t swap out bloodline spells". So making it a signature spell might still be a better solution. Tough choice.

I would agree with that. I'm only arguing that it is possible, not that it is actually a good idea.

Could be useful for Fear from the Demonic bloodline since that spell only has one specific heightened level that has any additional effect.

There are other spells with that facet to them too. Fly and Phantom Steed come to mind, but neither of those two show up as bloodline spells. So maybe a homebrew bloodline or a future publication.

[PlantThings]

Errenor wrote:

"you can’t swap out bloodline spells"

Is that a typo in the book? Bloodline spells are the Sorcerer focus spells, no?

It has to be referring to the granted spells by your bloodline since focus spells aren't in your spell repertoire to be swapped out. Unless they're both are classified as bloodline spells (granted and bloodline)? I've never noticed this before.

[breithauptclan]

PlantThings wrote:

Errenor wrote:

"you can’t swap out bloodline spells"

Is that a typo in the book? Bloodline spells are the Sorcerer focus spells, no?

I don't think the book actually has that typo. Probably just us discussing it on the forums.

But yes, the 'Bloodline Spells' are the focus point spells. The 'Bloodline Granted Spells' would be the spell slot spells that are automatically added to the Sorcerer's Repertoire as they level up.

Very distinct things with a very similar name.

[PlantThings]

This is the Sorcerer entry:

Swapping Spells In Your Repertoire wrote:

As you gain new spells in your spell repertoire, you might want to replace some of the spells you previously learned. Each time you gain a level and learn new spells, you can swap out one of your old spells for a different spell of the same level. This spell can be a cantrip, but you can't swap out bloodline spells. You can also swap out spells by retraining during downtime.

Double checked it with the other spontaneous casters. The Bard's: "This spell can be a cantrip." The Oracle's: "You can also instead swap a cantrip."

With context, I think it does mean 'bloodline granted spells' like how it's being discussed here and how I assumed what everyone meant. Actually reading the text threw me for a loop for a good while.

[wegrata]

I'm hoping in some future book they expand both granted spell and focus spell options for existing bloodlines to let them keep up as more thematic or appropriate options become available.

[breithauptclan]

@PlantThings - Yes, in that section it is definitely talking about the focus spells. So when leveling up and choosing new spells for your Repertoire you can't change out the Bloodline focus spells.

I don't think we currently have any way of getting multiple Bloodline spells on a sorcerer. So it feels like a future-proofing rule. I might be wrong about that. There may be some shenanigans to be had with Crossblooded Evolution or something like that.

But in any case, it is talking specifically about when you gain new spells during leveling up. It says nothing restricting you from changing out Bloodline focus spells through retraining feats. So if we do eventually get a bloodline or some other way of having options of Bloodline spells on the same character, you could still change them out that way.

At least, unless the future rules that introduce the additional Bloodline spells say that they can't be changed out during Retraining.