Black powder weapons

[Claxon]

Talonhawke wrote:

Salamileg wrote:

Yeah, I don't really want anything realistic from them either. I'd much rather they be like any other weapon, maybe with a couple unique traits.

Sadly the "you got firearms in my fantasy" crowd will still be upset about it and want to keep them still relegated to only one class being able to use them really and the world being unable to make use of them even though they have been around for close to a decade in world now.

I like them in the game world, and want them to be usable by everyone, but I want them to have sizable drawbacks.

I imagine a high damage (d12) weapon with 3 action reload time that is best used as an opening volley, and not continually in combat (unless you're a gunslinger). Probably some other traits on the weapon as well.

[Seisho]

Talonhawke wrote:

Salamileg wrote:

Yeah, I don't really want anything realistic from them either. I'd much rather they be like any other weapon, maybe with a couple unique traits.

Sadly the "you got firearms in my fantasy" crowd will still be upset about it and want to keep them still relegated to only one class being able to use them really and the world being unable to make use of them even though they have been around for close to a decade in world now.

The 'you got firearms in my fantasy' crowd will complain about a fire lance and a fire cracker

[thenobledrake]

Seisho wrote:

The 'you got firearms in my fantasy' crowd will complain about a fire lance and a fire cracker

And completely ignore that firearms have been in D&D almost as long as anything else, and not even just firearms either since Blackmoor is one of the original campaign settings and canonically suffered a nuclear apocalypse.

They really may as well be saying "you got thieves in my fantasy"

[LBHills]

Well, the first 10 years of D&D were full of genre-mixing. Attempts to enforce genre only came in the mid-eighties, after ten years of shooting robots* with six-shooters*, using the power armor you found in a wrecked starship* to fight King Kong*, and discovering to your horror that the Mad Hatter and March Hare were 8th-level monks*.

*: Module DA3, City of the Gods
*: 1st Ed DMG appendices discussing crossovers with the BOOT HILL game
*: Module C3, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
*: Module WG7, Isle of the Ape
*: Module EX1, Dungeonland

...I think I just figured out what inspired 'Samurai Jack'.

[Vidmaster7]

Has anyone mentioned making guns highly inaccurate at anything outside of point blank? needing specific feats to get around that.

[glass]

While I do not want firearms to be realistic, I do think realisitic early firearms are a good place to look for ideas as to how to differentiate firearms in PF2 (and I want them to be re mechanically differentiated - if I did not want significant machanical differentiation between distinct options, I would not be playing something with a 600 page rulebook).

In particular, I like the idea that you fire a shot or two from you pistol , then drop it and quickdraw another. To support this, some kind of worn item that confers its runes on any manufactured weapon the wearer attacks with would be necessary.

Such an item would be a good idea anyway - it would help thrown weapon builds too, and would be an alternative to doubling rings for TWFers.

_
glass.

[Talonhawke]

Claxon wrote:

Talonhawke wrote:

Salamileg wrote:

Yeah, I don't really want anything realistic from them either. I'd much rather they be like any other weapon, maybe with a couple unique traits.

Sadly the "you got firearms in my fantasy" crowd will still be upset about it and want to keep them still relegated to only one class being able to use them really and the world being unable to make use of them even though they have been around for close to a decade in world now.

I like them in the game world, and want them to be usable by everyone, but I want them to have sizable drawbacks.

I imagine a high damage (d12) weapon with 3 action reload time that is best used as an opening volley, and not continually in combat (unless you're a gunslinger). Probably some other traits on the weapon as well.

While I'm not saying that's a bad route my biggest complaint about 1E guns was that they were only really usable by certain classes/archetypes. On top of the stupid cost further pushing you into those set builds because gunsmithing. I don't necessarily want every one and their brother pulling out guns but I would like it to be something I could have a character use as weapon consistantly without having to be a gunslinger or take Gunslinger Dedication to do.

[Ravingdork]

I like Claxon's idea of a 3-action reload. It would also prevent the "familiar reloads for me for 1 action" type of shenanigans that every single gunslinger will be opting for if it were only two actions.

[Talonhawke]

Ravingdork wrote:

I like Claxon's idea of a 3-action reload. It would also prevent the "familiar reloads for me for 1 action" type of shenanigans that every single gunslinger will be opting for if it were only two actions.

At the same time we only have that type of cheese because the time to reward variable in 1e was so low if you didn't cheese out the faster reload possible. If you want guns to use a whole turn to reload then at least have the decency to make having on average 1 shot a round worth it. I think 2e can do this better than 1e honestly.

[Ixal]

Talonhawke wrote:

Salamileg wrote:

Yeah, I don't really want anything realistic from them either. I'd much rather they be like any other weapon, maybe with a couple unique traits.

Sadly the "you got firearms in my fantasy" crowd will still be upset about it and want to keep them still relegated to only one class being able to use them really and the world being unable to make use of them even though they have been around for close to a decade in world now.

Funnily there is a big overlap in the "no firearms and fantasy" and "I want Jack Sparrow pirates" crowd.

[Claxon]

Talonhawke wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

I like Claxon's idea of a 3-action reload. It would also prevent the "familiar reloads for me for 1 action" type of shenanigans that every single gunslinger will be opting for if it were only two actions.

At the same time we only have that type of cheese because the time to reward variable in 1e was so low if you didn't cheese out the faster reload possible. If you want guns to use a whole turn to reload then at least have the decency to make having on average 1 shot a round worth it. I think 2e can do this better than 1e honestly.

Honestly if I weren't so against the basis of the system I'd probably have guns do something like 2d6 for pistol and 2d12 for rifles, but with a 3 action reload, but I think having multiple dice for base damage would break the current design of the system.

Or maybe we just import something like the Unwieldy property from Starfinder that says under no circumstances can you ever fire this more than once per round.

[Saldiven]

Ixal wrote:

TiwazBlackhand wrote:

Make them all Advanced Weapons.

Off topic: I must always laugh when RPGs handle firearms the total opposite of how they were in real life.

How so?

In the real world, wheel lock firearms didn't exist until after Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Rifled firearms didn't exist until the mid-16th century. Firearms didn't become particularly common until the latter half of the Renaissance. The flintlock didn't exist until the 17th century. Percussion caps for firearms didn't appear until 1820.

If your world is fashioned after a combination of Medieval and Renaissance historical elements, it's perfectly reasonable for firearms to be rather rare items that required specific knowledge to use. This is even more necessary when you talk about care, maintenance, and manufacture of firearms, as prior to 1798, all firearms were one-of-a-kind creations by a craftsman; Eli Whitney's factory near New Haven was the first firearm factory of it's kind where every weapon produced was created to a specific standard so parts from one could be interchanged directly with another.

[Doktor Weasel]

There is a thematic clash issue with firearms. Not just the "Keep guns out of my fantasy!" mentality, but that everyone has completely different ideas of what firearms would entail and what they want out of them. There's a weird hodgepodge of tech-level assumptions going on in PF1. We've got 14th century hand-cannons next to 19th century revolvers and rifles. The differences between them are dramatic. The gunslinger class was kind of built around the idea of 19th century gunfighter tropes, but with earlier tech which wasn't really compatible. There's also the issue that lock types weren't' even addressed at all. I'm assuming the default assumption for most guns is flintlocks (in this case including the earlier snaplock, snaphance, dog-lock, miqulete lock etc and not just the "true" French-lock flintlock), but that skips wheel-locks, match locks and the lock-less hand-cannons. And then advanced firearms completely skips over the cap-lock step to go directly to metallic cartridges. Of course the other weapons and armor have a big age range too, with rapiers sitting next to kopeshes. So maybe it's not really a concern. But it does have a bigger mechanical difference. But I think before firearm mechanics are done, there needs to be a firm decision of just what is wanted out of guns. High-damage, slow-reload curiosities best suited for en-mass battlefield use, or rapid firing cowboy six shooter action? Trying to do both at the same time gets confused.

I actually kind of like the high-reload time encouraging people to carry a whole brace of pistols dangling from ribbons (also double barreled pistols). It's got the coolness of being like Blackbeard bristling with pistols, the fact that it was actually done, and the price, bulk and action requirements keeping things in check. And once you go through your six or whatever, you still have to take quite a while to reload the things. PF2 lacks the massive incentives of PF1 to specialize in using only one weapon type, so this could also encourage the Golden Age of Piracy style combat of blasting with your brace of pistols, then switching to your sword to finish things. In PF1 that'd require too many feats split between melee and ranged weapons to be useful, but seems more doable in PF2.

[Moppy]

I liked the idea of gunmage in warmachine (the iron kingdoms setting). They would use magic to enhance their shots; in PF2 the rule would be something like a focus spell that increased your gun range for one shot, or let you ricochet this bullet around a corner.