Readthrough Impressions

[Turtledonuts]

I've been planning a Nanite based homebrew enemy for a while for a campaign I've been GMing so I figured I would read through, document some first impressions, and cry as I burn my homebrew in favor of the official stats. I love the idea and I'm super excited - I think a nanite based class is super interesting (but nantite based races would be too).

Just reading through the document, I think that it would have been nice to get example builds like we see in the core rulebook. I also think character art would have been great to see, but of course, TTRPGs are all about theater of the mind, so it's fine. Of the bat though, the module does not explore how Android or SRO Nanocytes would work - more man than machine? What if I was a machine to start with? Can I start as a shell of armor filled with nanites, or am I a robot with nanites in me? Am I vulnerable to anti-android attacks as a bio nanocyte? Do nanocytes get all their energy from food, or as I progress into a nanite based machine, do I stop needing food? Does a level 20 Nanocyte suffer effects from antibiological weapons or spells, or is he just a complete machine at that point? We also need to know how this interfaces with the existing nanite upgrades and mentions in the rulebooks.

I would like to see an official document on what happens when a nanocyte encounters a nanite fusion, or a technomancer's nanite form. Can nanites mix? if they do, can they steal each other's nanites? DO they absorb nanite thrower attacks? Do those hurt them or make them stronger? Can enemies hack their nanites? Do they need ICE for their nanites? how much raw computational power does the Nanocyte's nanite swarm have? Is it a computer implant - can it be augmented with one, or do they not play nice with augments? Since this isn't magic, what happens to gear hidden inside a body compartment when they turn into a swarm - especially if it's special and can't be deconstructed? Can a Nanite cloud manipulate objects?

More importantly, from a playstyle standpoint these will make great enemies and villains - the destructive and infectious ones especially just scream BBEG to me. However, I also think that it needs vulnerabilities. Nanite based organisms should be required to feed on computers to sustain their abilities after use - you would lose nanites to attacks and stuff, and unless you're feeding your nanite swarm off of your body or your enemies, you need to regenerate from the environment. So I think that the nanite swarm needs to feed off of computers or corpses after usage at low levels, or it will hurt the user. The potential for an antagonistic relationship between the nanites and the user is a really great mechanic and just an interesting way to look at things. Basing it on CON to me says that it needs to have a relationship with your body's strength, and like a Warlock having a patron who could be evil, nanites might not always be kind to their host (like a venom symbiote.)

Also, I would love to see a Grey goo scenario or exploration here. The idea of an infectious nanite plague that attacks machinery or AIs and can eventually eat planets is classic in Sci-fi, and one that I think this should explore. As a GM, I immediately want to have a Nanocyte villain planning on turning himself into a sapient Grey Goo threat, like a Necromancer turning into a Lich. I would love to see some supporting/surround material on the Nanocyte exploring enemies, traps, or threats related to this.

Overall, this is good, but my automatic gut feel is that this is like introducing necromantic magic to a system that didn't have it before - it's not just necromancers, we also need skeletons, zombies, liches, and the like. I want a whole ecosystem of Nanocyte related stuff, not just the class. Paladins imply orders, churches, heretics and faithfuls. Operatives imply sneaky jobs, assassinations, and the criminal underworld / political skulldiggery that employs them. Nanocytes need to have a place in the worldbuilding beyond being the Technomancer's Nanite Form spell.

All in all, very cool. I have a session scheduled this weekend, I might do a one-off to explore the nanocyte then. I'm sure there's tons of stuff I've mentioned here that was answered in the document with even more careful reading, but these are my thoughts. Thanks for this opportunity!

Edit: concise list of thoughts, plus a few more:

1) very cool, very exciting, can't wait to see how this goes. However, I would like to see more supporting material so it feels more natural in the setting, as I think it butts heads with the Technomancer. At high levels, it also becomes a better infiltrator than a rogue, as it can slip through vents and stuff to infiltrate buildings, or use knacks to sneak in the traditional way.

2) Great for villains, would like to see some enemies built in the same vein, like a necromancer having zombies, and a upgraded enemy version like a necromancer becoming a lich.

3) Potential for conflict between the nanites and the player - like a warlock's patron being evil, this is a great narrative mechanic, and it was hinted at but not explored. Requiring nanites to harvest material from the environment to replenish is one idea, espeically if they harm the user unless 'fed'. Also, more details about how they work for android or SRO players.

4) Grey goo. It's a nanite swarm, so you gotta. More nanite cloud expansion in general, actually, and how it interacts with Nanite form from technomancers.

5) How do they interact with existing nanite fusions or nanite based weapons, and how do they interact with other nanite clouds?

6) Some supporting material for the GM to start it off. Ways to make life hard for the player doing a Nanocyte, or ways for the party to beat a Nanocyte villain.

[JiCi]

I feel like the Cloud Array should be dialed down... a lot...

For a character who can shape its nanobots into anything it wants, I don't think that people expect it to make a nanobot cloud.

I think that the cloud array should be either a faculty or knacks.

[QuidEst]

I feel like lot of this stuff is going to be up to GMs! The book isn't likely to spend space on "how to screw over the player", and listing out special nanite/nanite interactions would require an obscure table that would very rarely come up. Androids and SROs aren't going to be treated differently, partly for balance reasons, and partly to leave players free to come up with cool interpretations. (Personally, I don't think adding more machines to them somehow makes them more organic.) Villain material is generally going to show up in the alien archives (where we do already have some cool grey goo content) and adventure paths; if we get a nanocyte template, that can be applied to monsters easily while they continue to put out more bespoke enemies.

I'd probably look at the Witchwarper as an example- it's got similarly wide-reaching setting implications (there are parallel realities that some people can draw from), but they didn't write all those details up.

JiCi wrote:

I feel like the Cloud Array should be dialed down... a lot...

For a character who can shape its nanobots into anything it wants, I don't think that people expect it to make a nanobot cloud.

I think that the cloud array should be either a faculty or knacks.

Clouds of nanites absolutely feel like one of the standard tropes to me, from Michael Crichton's "Prey" to the Doctor Who episode, "The Lonely Child". (And yeah, the author of Jurassic Park also wrote a book about nanomachines.) From tvtropes, "Nanomachines can be depicted as masses of cloud/liquid in external 'colonies', Voluntary Shapeshifting Blobs, or syringes of stuff to be injected into humans and have fantastic results, usually in the form of superpowers, but sometimes in the form of a Baleful Polymorph or Harmful Healing."

I do feel like its "free" form should maybe do a little more than increasing your guarded step.

[JiCi]

QuidEst wrote:

JiCi wrote:

I feel like the Cloud Array should be dialed down... a lot...

For a character who can shape its nanobots into anything it wants, I don't think that people expect it to make a nanobot cloud.

I think that the cloud array should be either a faculty or knacks.

Clouds of nanites absolutely feel like one of the standard tropes to me, from Michael Crichton's "Prey" to the Doctor Who episode, "The Lonely Child". (And yeah, the author of Jurassic Park also wrote a book about nanomachines.) From tvtropes, "Nanomachines can be depicted as masses of cloud/liquid in external 'colonies', Voluntary Shapeshifting Blobs, or syringes of stuff to be injected into humans and have fantastic results, usually in the form of superpowers, but sometimes in the form of a Baleful Polymorph or Harmful Healing."

I do feel like its "free" form should maybe do a little more than increasing your guarded step.

I'll have to read more into it, but I feel like half of the nanocyte's stuff is for the cloud array, while the rest is for the stealth and the gear arrays.

Also, Swarm Strike should come bundled with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free.

[QuidEst]

JiCi wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

JiCi wrote:

I feel like the Cloud Array should be dialed down... a lot...

For a character who can shape its nanobots into anything it wants, I don't think that people expect it to make a nanobot cloud.

I think that the cloud array should be either a faculty or knacks.

Clouds of nanites absolutely feel like one of the standard tropes to me, from Michael Crichton's "Prey" to the Doctor Who episode, "The Lonely Child". (And yeah, the author of Jurassic Park also wrote a book about nanomachines.) From tvtropes, "Nanomachines can be depicted as masses of cloud/liquid in external 'colonies', Voluntary Shapeshifting Blobs, or syringes of stuff to be injected into humans and have fantastic results, usually in the form of superpowers, but sometimes in the form of a Baleful Polymorph or Harmful Healing."

I do feel like its "free" form should maybe do a little more than increasing your guarded step.

I'll have to read more into it, but I feel like half of the nanocyte's stuff is for the cloud array, while the rest is for the stealth and the gear arrays.

Also, Swarm Strike should come bundled with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free.

Ah, you're not talking about the base ability being too much; you're talking about having too many options for it. I suppose that's because the base ability doesn't do much without paying for it, and because it's the most external option.

Generally agreed that Swarm Strike should bundle IUS, but if they have to nerf it to include the feat, I'd rather pay separately for the feat.

[Garretmander]

Honestly, most of the abilities seem to be all for either the cloud or gear arrays, and other than swarm strike, the sheath array has little support.

I think swarm strike is fine where it is. It's a free ring of fangs, and you can use CON on the attack roll. Needing a feat is a tax, but perhaps an appropriate one.

[Turtledonuts]

QuidEst wrote:

I feel like lot of this stuff is going to be up to GMs! The book isn't likely to spend space on "how to screw over the player", and listing out special nanite/nanite interactions would require an obscure table that would very rarely come up. Androids and SROs aren't going to be treated differently, partly for balance reasons, and partly to leave players free to come up with cool interpretations. (Personally, I don't think adding more machines to them somehow makes them more organic.) Villain material is generally going to show up in the alien archives (where we do already have some cool grey goo content) and adventure paths; if we get a nanocyte template, that can be applied to monsters easily while they continue to put out more bespoke enemies.

I'd probably look at the Witchwarper as an example- it's got similarly wide-reaching setting implications (there are parallel realities that some people can draw from), but they didn't write all those details up.

JiCi wrote:

I feel like the Cloud Array should be dialed down... a lot...

For a character who can shape its nanobots into anything it wants, I don't think that people expect it to make a nanobot cloud.

I think that the cloud array should be either a faculty or knacks.

Clouds of nanites absolutely feel like one of the standard tropes to me, from Michael Crichton's "Prey" to the Doctor Who episode, "The Lonely Child". (And yeah, the author of Jurassic Park also wrote a book about nanomachines.) From tvtropes, "Nanomachines can be depicted as masses of cloud/liquid in external 'colonies', Voluntary Shapeshifting Blobs, or syringes of stuff to be injected into humans and have fantastic results, usually in the form of superpowers, but sometimes in the form of a Baleful Polymorph or Harmful Healing."

I do feel like its "free" form should maybe do a little more than increasing your guarded step.

The arrays would be far more interesting if they were vulnerable to different types of attacks. Cloud array seems like it should be more vulnerable to fire and AOE attacks, while sheath seem like it should be more vulnerable to piercing attacks, because the sheath layered inside you.

The idea that it's just up to GMs is extremely frustrating on some of these things, because while it's nice to make my own choices, some of this stuff needs to have answers and consistent rules. There's lots of Nanite usage in the Core Rulebook and other expansions - there's nanite rifles, nanite throwers, nanite form spells, nanite injections, nanite fusions, medical nanites... There's a lot of Nanites around, and a class that specifically uses nanites needs rules for interactions with other nanites.

I reviewed the alien archive and I do see a lot of grey goo type stuff I missed, but it still feels like there could be some new things to make the nanite form more natural in setting - and it is important to see how androids and SROs are treated for this in particular, because they get things like nanite upgrade and nanite integration, and because even if it needs to be balanced, it still needs to feel right. It's a collaborative storytelling game, and expansions need to feel immersive, not like they're just DLCs or patches for an MMO.

[QuidEst]

Turtledonuts wrote:

The arrays would be far more interesting if they were vulnerable to different types of attacks. Cloud array seems like it should be more vulnerable to fire and AOE attacks, while sheath seem like it should be more vulnerable to piercing attacks, because the sheath layered inside you.

Eh, I find that vulnerabilities tend to feel bad. Like, for the AoE suggestion for cloud- enemies get to ruin all my setup and wipe out the points I invested, and still damage me and whatever members of the party were caught in the blast?

Turtledonuts wrote:

The idea that it's just up to GMs is extremely frustrating on some of these things, because while it's nice to make my own choices, some of this stuff needs to have answers and consistent rules. There's lots of Nanite usage in the Core Rulebook and other expansions - there's nanite rifles, nanite throwers, nanite form spells, nanite injections, nanite fusions, medical nanites... There's a lot of Nanites around, and a class that specifically uses nanites needs rules for interactions with other nanites.

The rules stuff is going to be straightforward and consistent- it works normally. You having nanites doesn't stop somebody from using nanites against you, any more than a caster having magic doesn't prevent magic items from working against them. (But, since your nanites can prevent damage, there's a cool tie-in there.)

Turtledonuts wrote:

I reviewed the alien archive and I do see a lot of grey goo type stuff I missed, but it still feels like there could be some new things to make the nanite form more natural in setting - and it is important to see how androids and SROs are treated for this in particular, because they get things like nanite upgrade and nanite integration, and because even if it needs to be balanced, it still needs to feel right. It's a collaborative storytelling game, and expansions need to feel immersive, not like they're just DLCs or patches for an MMO.

Ah, I see. Yeah, they'll be doing lore tie-in stuff by making an iconic with a backstory. Could be an android! If not, the nanite abilities of androids and SROs are an existing world tie-in, showing how smaller amounts of nanites are commonly used. An android nanocyte is kind of like a human biohacker?

Anyway, that's just my take on it. This isn't an "Operations Guide", but something else- there could be more of a lore focus than COM had. I'm biased towards more new options, too, instead of adding layers to interactions with the old stuff.

[JiCi]

Here's the rundown

Cloud (12):
Reactive Spray
Malignant Mist
Reactive Repair
Nanosurgeon
From the Brink
Surgical Host
Hungry Nanites
Sensory Nanites
Defensive Doppelganger
Group Dispersal
Menacing Pall
Omnipresent Form

Sheath (7):
Swarm Shadow
Malignant Mist
Agile Host
Surgical Host
Swarm Strike
Versatile Nanites
Facial Reconfiguration

Gear (14):
Noxious Nanites
Unstoppable Nanites
Energized Swarm
Spreading Swarm
Flashing Nanites
Bend Bullet
Split Manifestation
Heavy Weapon Edge
Hungry Nanites
Adaptable Weaponry
All-seeing Nanites
Charge Vampire
Deconstructor
Menacing Pall

Ok, so the Gear and Cloud Arrays are almost the same number of related abilities, but the Sheath Array gets half of that number.

If anything, the Sheath Array should grant you an Armor bonus equal to your Nanonyet level plus your Constitution modifier.

[QuidEst]

JiCi wrote:

Ok, so the Gear and Cloud Arrays are almost the same number of related abilities, but the Sheath Array gets half of that number.

If anything, the Sheath Array should grant you an Armor bonus equal to your Nanonyet level plus your Constitution modifier.

You really don't want the Nanocyte class letting you make armor; that's a big trap. As soon as you rely on it… bam, that's the only thing you can do in combat with it until you go don armor. Armor is easily your most important equipment in Starfinder because it contributes so much to your survival.

[JiCi]

QuidEst wrote:

JiCi wrote:

Ok, so the Gear and Cloud Arrays are almost the same number of related abilities, but the Sheath Array gets half of that number.

If anything, the Sheath Array should grant you an Armor bonus equal to your Nanonyet level plus your Constitution modifier.

You really don't want the Nanocyte class letting you make armor; that's a big trap. As soon as you rely on it… bam, that's the only thing you can do in combat with it until you go don armor. Armor is easily your most important equipment in Starfinder because it contributes so much to your survival.

Oh... that sucks... It should get a bit more though.

[Ixal]

QuidEst wrote:

JiCi wrote:

Ok, so the Gear and Cloud Arrays are almost the same number of related abilities, but the Sheath Array gets half of that number.

If anything, the Sheath Array should grant you an Armor bonus equal to your Nanonyet level plus your Constitution modifier.

You really don't want the Nanocyte class letting you make armor; that's a big trap. As soon as you rely on it… bam, that's the only thing you can do in combat with it until you go don armor. Armor is easily your most important equipment in Starfinder because it contributes so much to your survival.

Is it?

With the way monsters are build to have a very high attack bonus the amount of damage an armor prevents is rather low.

[QuidEst]

Ixal wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

JiCi wrote:

Ok, so the Gear and Cloud Arrays are almost the same number of related abilities, but the Sheath Array gets half of that number.

If anything, the Sheath Array should grant you an Armor bonus equal to your Nanonyet level plus your Constitution modifier.

You really don't want the Nanocyte class letting you make armor; that's a big trap. As soon as you rely on it… bam, that's the only thing you can do in combat with it until you go don armor. Armor is easily your most important equipment in Starfinder because it contributes so much to your survival.

Is it?

With the way monsters are build to have a very high attack bonus the amount of damage an armor prevents is rather low.

Let's look at level six, the last level where you can only have one thing out. Light armor is about +6 (also meaning "level plus Con" is definitely too much). If I've gotten clever and decided to save money on armor by using nanites, then using anything but sheath means taking -6 AC. And I did mean survival generally- the game often assumes that you have environment protections available. Any time you use another form, you'd be taking -4 vs. radiation, and having a really unpleasant time in vacuum.

The other problem is that sheath also gives access to the "free weapon" option with swarm strike. Getting free armor and a free weapon saves you 50% of your WBL; the other classes only save you 25% if you just stick with the free scaling.

[Metaphysician]

Also, "only" having enough armor so that "enemies" ( which? how many? ) hit you on a 6+? Still means you are reducing damage taken by 25% versus no armor. That is not even close to nothing, and its only too many years of broken Pathfinder builds that create the illusion otherwise.

There's probably room for some kind of armor enhancement abilities on the Nanocyte, but it should probably be a knack. And really, Nanocytes have so many defensive powers as is that you risk pushing things over into invulnerability far too easily.