Ranger - Monster Hunter Feat Questions

[Brian2344]

I have a few questions about the Monster Hunter feat:

1) For the +1 bonus, it says it applies to you and allies *you tell*. Do you automatically tell your allies as part of the Hunt Prey action, or do you need to spend something like a Point Out action for that to apply?

2) Do you get the +1 bonus even when you fail the Recall Knowledge check? It is unclear if that just applies to "you note a weakness in the creatures's defenses" or to both.

3) If you also have Double Prey and Monster Hunter, do you:
- only get to pick one enemy to make the check against?
- make separate checks against each enemy?
- make a single check and get info about both enemies?

*Edit*: When I read "you note a weakness in the creature’s defenses", I thought that means the GM tells you something like the creature has weakness to fire damage, but now I think that is just flavor text leading into the +1 bonus part.

[Lightning Raven]

1) I think the point of the ability is to grant that +1 from the get go. Even if not, it's a free action to say a few words. Just in case your GM is trying to put meaningless extra hurdles.
2) The +1 is only for Critical Successes, unless you're a master monster hunter.
3) I think you repeat the exact same process for each enemy, which means rolling against each of them.

[Samurai]

Lightning Raven is right, you only get the +1 on 1 attack roll on a Crit Success, so given my lack of dice luck, I didn't take the feat line for my Ranger. You should look at the feat as a free lore check that very rarely might result in a +1 bonus once, but that is not the main purpose or typical effect....

[Brian2344]

Thanks!

I guess making a single roll for both wouldn't make sense since they could be different levels and have different DCs.

Monster Hunter is super weak until you can get Master Monster Hunter. I just did some retraining at level 13 and I think it will be pretty strong with Master in Nature.

[Lightning Raven]

Samurai wrote:

Lightning Raven is right, you only get the +1 on 1 attack roll on a Crit Success, so given my lack of dice luck, I didn't take the feat line for my Ranger. You should look at the feat as a free lore check that very rarely might result in a +1 bonus once, but that is not the main purpose or typical effect....

I'm playing a Precision Ranger with focus on support abilities and I've yet to see much return from this ability. I'm not that worried in the end because it was my goal to have a character less focused on being great at combat.

As feedback for anyone interested, I think the ability truly kicks in when you have Master Monster Hunter (I really wish it was available sooner, though). So you should be ware of picking such an ability if you will not be investing a little bit in INT. On the other hand, if your character is stating at higher level, it makes this build quite good since you can simply focus all on DEX/WIS and still perform the knowledge role quite well because of Master Monster Hunter's powerful benefit of identifying everything with Nature.

[Lightning Raven]

Brian2344 wrote:

Thanks!

I guess making a single roll for both wouldn't make sense since they could be different levels and have different DCs.

Monster Hunter is super weak until you can get Master Monster Hunter. I just did some retraining at level 13 and I think it will be pretty strong with Master in Nature.

You are right, it's pretty weak by itself (It could've been a +1 from the get go and +2 on a crit. success and it wouldn't be insane, Bards do much more for much less and every round).

One thing that can you can suggest to your GM to speed up the game is to roll only once when the targets are of the same type.

[Castilliano]

Monster Hunter is weak if seeking that bonus. Horrible in fact.
When people talk about building support Rangers around it, I can't fathom why (other than the lack of 1st level support/MCD support options).
Getting a bow and Hunted Shot "supports" the party more.

Yet if one sees enough value in IDing monsters to make IDing worth spending an action, then the saved action is worthwhile (for a low-level feat). I've seen IDing change battles dramatically and with that feat you've just saved your party an action.
Why should the burden be on those casters who, if spending two action to cast, likely have an important use for their 3rd action?

[N N 959]

In and of itself, Monster Hunter is a bad feat from PF1 standards, for a number of reasons, but for PF2, it's part of a long list of feats that feel like you are an orphan and your having to choose between gruel and slop for dinner. In other words, there are other equally lousy choices. I look at this feat and can't help but feel it's part fo the "every +1 is HUGE" hyperbole that arose during the PF2 Playtest.

The only thing that really justifies it (and Monster Warden) are the fact that once you get Master MH, it is no longer costing you an Action and it benefits the whole team, assuming they can hear you.

There are some questions that I think need to be answered. One in particular: If you or an ally get the +1 bonus from either MH or MW, how long will it last before you use it? If I track a target, designate it as my Prey, ID it using MMH and convey the bonus to others....does it last until we actually encounter the creature...whenever that is?

One of the things I think is really poorly executed with this feat tree is the fact that it almost compels players to ignore it and then retrain into it. I suppose Paizo wants retraining to be a viable mechanism for character building, but it really feels like one is gaming the system.

[N N 959]

Castilliano wrote:

Monster Hunter is weak if seeking that bonus. Horrible in fact.

Well, it's horrible if you're trying to tack it on.

Quote:

When people talk about building support Rangers around it, I can't fathom why (other than the lack of 1st level support/MCD support options).

Getting a bow and Hunted Shot "supports" the party more.

Well, part of this comes from a designer during the playtest trying to market the Ranger as a party buffer. Paizo had this really bad habit of trying to hype some classes during the Playtest and the Ranger was one of them.

You can see Paizo trying to double down on the mentality that if you take MH and then train yourself in all the RK skills, you're going around "buffing" the party with it and Monster Warden. Only Paizo conveniently leaves out the expected value of that buffing. It's like Ford trying to tell you that you can go off-road in an Escort. Well....yes, you can drive on a dirt road or a grass field. But nobody would call that off-roading and nobody would call the expected return on MH "support."

[N N 959]

Castilliano wrote:

Monster Hunter is weak if seeking that bonus. Horrible in fact.

Well, it's horrible if you're trying to tack it on.

Quote:

When people talk about building support Rangers around it, I can't fathom why (other than the lack of 1st level support/MCD support options).

Getting a bow and Hunted Shot "supports" the party more.

Well, part of this comes from a designer during the playtest trying to market the Ranger as a party buffer. Paizo had this really bad habit of trying to hype the versatility of some classes during the Playtest and the Ranger was one of them.

You can see Paizo trying to double down on the mentality that if you take MH and then train yourself in all the RK skills, you're going around "buffing" the party with it and Monster Warden. Only Paizo conveniently leaves out the expected value of that buffing. It's like Ford trying to tell you that you can go off-road in an Escort. Well....yes, you can drive on a dirt road or a grass field. But nobody would call that off-roading and nobody would call the expected return on MH "support."

[Lightning Raven]

The Free Recall knowledge and not building a basic b@%!+ build was my first goal, that's why I picked Monster Hunter.

I wanted my character to be someone that hunted creatures as his job, so knowing everything about them was a must. I never underestimate the advantages of Recall Knowledge at my table because in another campaign, there were A LOT of fights our GM told us it would've been better for us to know about the monsters, we even lost to a dumb Moderate fight because we didn't recall any knowledge about the Hazards we were fighting, since they seemed like just incorporeal creatures and we tried killing them by attacks and it would've been much better to use a skill check that my Monk was great at.

You may not get that +1 every time, which is a shame, but the action economy enhancer is good enough for a level 1 Feat, even if it's less attractive than other feats.

[N N 959]

Lightning Raven wrote:

You may not get that +1 every time, which is a shame, but the action economy enhancer is good enough for a level 1 Feat, even if it's less attractive than other feats.

Yeah...not even close. The other 1st level feats are Animal Companion, Hunted Shot, Twin Takedown, and Crossbow Ace. Statistically, mechanically, it's the worst feat of the lot by a country mile, if not two. If you take MH at 1st level, it's because you're Human and you have two feat choices.

At 2nd level, MH is still one of the worst ones because you can't take Monster Warden if you don't have MH. Though I would concede that Favored Terran is decidedly worse as both a stand-a-lone feat and as part of a feat tree.

Quote:

I wanted my character to be someone that hunted creatures as his job, so knowing everything about them was a must.

Yes. What MH does give you at low level, is narrative. That can certainly count for some, as would Favored Terrain. There's also that gambler pay-off that you get with MH, though I hope you do realize that the GM is the one who is suppose to roll the RK checks. If there were more feats that paid off the build like MMH, then this game would be a home-run. As it is, it feels like this is the only one in the entire Ranger arsenal.

Unfortunately, yes pretty easy to imagine this ability, or something like it, will be given to the Inquisitor or the Investigator.

Quote:

I never underestimate the advantages of Recall Knowledge at my table...

If there is an undervalued aspect to Master Monster Hunter, it's this. Because RK checks typically cost the a character (i.e.spellcasters) an action that they don't want to spend, Paizo set this ability up to have a consistent and possibly encounter changing impact. So I agree that the MMH tree is one of the best things the Ranger has. I don't know if anyone else gets the equivalent of MMH, but it is probably the one true ability that a Ranger can acquire and be useful to every party and not overshadowed by another Druid, Fighter, or Rogue.

But if not for MMH, MH would be a horrible feat given the Ranger's needing to raise INT, invest in RK skills, and needing a crit to get the benefit. You should note that most Rangers who take this, probably won't crit on non-Nature creatures with anything less than a 20. 5% of the time you're giving a +1 and 5% of the time you give it, it matters. So you're having an impact. .25% fo the time. So 1 out of every 400 times you use it, you gave someone a +1 that allowed them to hit. A feat that pays off 1 out of 400 seems like a bust, IMO. However, you still get the RK check and hopefully the GM is giving you info based on success, in which case it has a lot more utility, even if you don't crit.

[Lightning Raven]

I completely understand that Monster Hunter isn't even a near match for other feats, but I made a point of making a supportive build, that's why I didn't pick those other feats (I don't like animal companions).

My build focus will be granting Warden's Boon, getting knowledge and the occasional +1 to hit would be just a side bonus. I didn't want to get into the spotlight because in this campaign we have a new player that although was experienced with PF1e, he was coming from years of playing 5e, so I decided to make a enabler build so that my teammates take the charge in combat and the new player has the chance to experience more of the system since we play inconsistently.

[lemeres]

Brian2344 wrote:

Thanks!

I guess making a single roll for both wouldn't make sense since they could be different levels and have different DCs.

Monster Hunter is super weak until you can get Master Monster Hunter. I just did some retraining at level 13 and I think it will be pretty strong with Master in Nature.

It is more of an action saving feat designed for utility. Recalling knowledge takes an action, and this lets you combine that with an action you were going to take anyway as a ranger. Your main value comes from the information from monster IDing.

Of course, for most of your career, you will have to deal with the int/wisdom divide of knowledge skills.

Really, it is a feat you can slot in when you don't have good early level options, and it lets you take a gamble on a good knowledge roll. It is nicer on melee precision rangers, since a lot of the feats are made with TWF or archery in mind (usually as part of a flurry). You need SOMETHING to feel like you ranger is doing things other than having a pet.

[N N 959]

Lightning Raven wrote:

I completely understand that Monster Hunter isn't even a near match for other feats, but I made a point of making a supportive build, that's why I didn't pick those other feats (I don't like animal companions).

I imagine someone at Paizo is smiling that you are making a "support" Ranger starting at level 1, and this feat is helping you do it.

Quote:

My build focus will be granting Warden's Boon, getting knowledge and the occasional +1 to hit would be just a side bonus.

Well, you know, that might be a fairly interesting build. With Precision and Warden's boon, you can give the d8 bonus to three allies per turn. The only problem is that you're having to wait until lvl 8 for this build to pay off. 7 levels of mediocre combat could be rough.

Report back and let us know how satisfying that build turns out. I tried to make a support cleric one time and I scrapped it after one scenario. Just wasn't the fun I thought it would be.

[Mellored]

Monster hunter by itself is horrible.

+warden and it's still kinda bad.
+master and it's pretty good.
+legendary and it's superb.

So just make sure to make use of retaining.

Maybe toss in scouts warning to complete the build.

[Lightning Raven]

N N 959 wrote:

Lightning Raven wrote:

I completely understand that Monster Hunter isn't even a near match for other feats, but I made a point of making a supportive build, that's why I didn't pick those other feats (I don't like animal companions).

I imagine someone at Paizo is smiling that you are making a "support" Ranger starting at level 1, and this feat is helping you do it.

Quote:

My build focus will be granting Warden's Boon, getting knowledge and the occasional +1 to hit would be just a side bonus.

Well, you know, that might be a fairly interesting build. With Precision and Warden's boon, you can give the d8 bonus to three allies per turn. The only problem is that you're having to wait until lvl 8 for this build to pay off. 7 levels of mediocre combat could be rough.

Report back and let us know how satisfying that build turns out. I tried to make a support cleric one time and I scrapped it after one scenario. Just wasn't the fun I thought it would be.

My build is basically this:

Woodland Elf Precision Ranger
STR 14 DEX 18 CON 10 INT 12 WIS 14 CHAR 10
Ancestry Feat: Otherworldly magic (Shield)
1st: Monster Hunter
2nd: Rogue Dedication(Natural Medicine) and Skill training (society).
3rd: Toughness. Nature increase
4th: Rogue Feat (Mobility). Skill Feat (Battle Medicine) [There have been a lot of encounters in tight spaces, I'm picking this worried about AoO's getting my character trapped.
5th: Elven Instincts
6th: Skirmish Strike (for the action economy). I would go for Swift Tracker, to keep in line wth the Hunter concept, but my GM doesn't follow the exploration rules closely, so it would be a waste in my table.
7th: Ancestral Paragon (Woodcraft). Master in Nature.
8th: Warden's Boon. Skill Feat (Forager).
9th: Elf Step. Master on Survival
10th: Master Monster Hunter. Recognize Spell (No reaction so far, seems to be a good way to capitalize on my investment in Arcana,Occultism and Religion).
12th: Double Prey. Skill Feat (Terrain Stalker)
14th: Shared Prey (So that I can benefit both allies). Skill Feat (Swift Sneak).
16th: Legendary Monster Hunter.

That's basically the endgame for this build. I've still a long way to go and there are some choices that are still up to debate, because my GM is adapting Rise of the Runelords and so far there has been a LOT of encounters in very tight spaces, which prompted me to choose Mobility for extra survivability.

So far, on 4th level, I've been satisfied, despite the fact that I roll less that 5 more often than not on Recall Knowledge checks (My GM doesn't like rolling them), on the other hand that extra +1 made our Barb one shot two enemies because it turned a normal hit to a critical.