So...
TLDR: Does "Lengthy Diversion" make you hidden even if you are in plain sight at the end of your movenment/turn?
One of my players play a rogue, and he took the skill feat "Lengthy Diversion" in order to use "Create Diversion" more effectively, but we kind of disagree on how it works, so I hope one of you clever people can help.
So "Create Diversion" states: "Success: You become hidden to each creature whose Perception DC is less than or equal to your result. (The hidden condition allows you to Sneak away, as described on page 252.) This lasts until the end of your turn or until you do anything except Step or use the Hide or the Sneak action of the Stealth skill (pages 251 and 252). If you Strike a creature, the creature remains flat‑footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise."
And "Lengthy Diversion" states: "When you critically succeed to Create a Diversion, you continue to remain hidden after the end of your turn. This effect lasts for an amount of time that depends on the diversion and situation, as determined by the GM (minimum 1 additional round)."
My argument is that the general rules for sneaking and stealth still applies (CRB page 252: the rogue looses hidden/undetected conditions if he/she doesn't have cover or concealment at the end of his/her move-action).
My player on the other hand, thinks that "Lengthy Diversion" on a crit makes you hidden for the extended period regardless of cover/concealment or lack there of.
What do you think?
Lengthy Diversion extends your hidden condition on a crit success for at least 1 round. This they are hidden and dont need cover.
If it didnt do that, what benefit would the feat even be granting?
Malk_Content wrote: Lengthy Diversion extends your hidden condition on a crit success for at least 1 round. This they are hidden and dont need cover.
If it didnt do that, what benefit would the feat even be granting?
That you would remain hidden after the end of your turn (when you are in cover). Without it, your status would drop to observed, and thus you would only get the cover bonus to AC even if you ran to cover.
But you really think that a level 1 skill feat can grant you "hide in plain sight" even though the "Observed Condition" reads: "Anything in plain view is observed by you."
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Tweezer wrote: Malk_Content wrote: Lengthy Diversion extends your hidden condition on a crit success for at least 1 round. This they are hidden and dont need cover.
If it didnt do that, what benefit would the feat even be granting?
That you would remain hidden after the end of your turn (when you are in cover). Without it, your status would drop to observed, and thus you would only get the cover bonus to AC even if you ran to cover.
But you really think that a level 1 skill feat can grant you "hide in plain sight" even though the "Observed Condition" reads: "Anything in plain view is observed by you." But so long as you haven't done anything to break your Hidden status (like a Strike) you are Hidden at the end of your turn anyway whilst in Cover. So the feat is doing literally nothing in that situation. Or are you saying your interpretation allows you to remain Hidden even when taking actions that explicitly break it? That seems more absurd than Hide in Plain Sight, as thats "Hide while physically hitting someone several times."
It also requires a Critical Success to "Hide in Plain Sight." So it isn't a given and will be quite rare at Level 1 (you don't have many foes below your level whose Perception DC is going to be easy to Crit on.) And it also isn't "Hide in Plain Sight" anyway, its a diversion, so the premise is "I have diverted their attention for slightly longer than 6s, instead of slightly less."
Tweezer wrote: Malk_Content wrote: Lengthy Diversion extends your hidden condition on a crit success for at least 1 round. This they are hidden and dont need cover.
If it didnt do that, what benefit would the feat even be granting?
That you would remain hidden after the end of your turn (when you are in cover). Without it, your status would drop to observed, and thus you would only get the cover bonus to AC even if you ran to cover.
But you really think that a level 1 skill feat can grant you "hide in plain sight" even though the "Observed Condition" reads: "Anything in plain view is observed by you." If you're Hidden in Cover at the end of your Turn, you stay Hidden. Why would you drop to Observed?
Lengthy Diversion allows you to stay Hidden with no Cover, for a minimum of 1 Round.
Of course in either case, if you do anything that breaks your Hidden Status (usually Strike or Stride), you are no longer Hidden.
Aratorin wrote: Tweezer wrote: Malk_Content wrote: Lengthy Diversion extends your hidden condition on a crit success for at least 1 round. This they are hidden and dont need cover.
If it didnt do that, what benefit would the feat even be granting?
That you would remain hidden after the end of your turn (when you are in cover). Without it, your status would drop to observed, and thus you would only get the cover bonus to AC even if you ran to cover.
But you really think that a level 1 skill feat can grant you "hide in plain sight" even though the "Observed Condition" reads: "Anything in plain view is observed by you." If you're Hidden in Cover at the end of your Turn, you stay Hidden. Why would you drop to Observed?
Lengthy Diversion allows you to stay Hidden with no Cover, for a minimum of 1 Round.
Of course in either case, if you do anything that breaks your Hidden Status (usually Strike or Stride), you are no longer Hidden. I think I'm just trying to understand it.
And as I understand it, you don't remain hidden just because you are in cover, you need cover or concealment AND to roll a stealthy check at the end of your move action in order to stay hidden, or did I misunderstand how sneak works?
Basically I thought of lengthy diversion as a way to forego that roll.
In short, what My player wanted to do, was point and say "look behind you" mid combat (create a diversion) and then argued, that he would remain hidden even when standing in the middle of an open field because of a crit with lengthy diversion (he didn't sneak away, but moved towards the creatures, and was always in plain view)
For me the description from "observed" make this impossible as it states "Anything in plain view is observed by you." and to me he clearly remained in plain view.
Or is the idea, that his diversion is so good, that they just keep looking to where he pointed even during their turns?
If he just moved then he broke the Hidden condition. If he used Sneak then he makes the roll as part of that sneak.
Feats break the rules. Create a Diversion is modifying the regular stealth rules, and Lengthy Diversion increases it.
Remember this is a maybe once per enemy trick and using it for an in combat advantage isnt really a thing (it's cool but action economy wise it is pretty poor) so it's mostly a way to stealth out of an encounter or avoid one in the first place.
Even if someone is standing right in front of you in broad daylight in the open, they can still be hidden, undetected or even unnoticed if you're not looking at her. Your player is totally right, your interpretation renders the feat completely useless IMO.
It's one of those feats where you have to think of a ways they can hide after a diversion. For the goblin in my group that has it he sorts of vanishes in his cape. Just imagine it like a magic trick where a magician makes it look like he has disappeared right in front of an audience.
I was about to create something when I saw that there was already an argument about it. So has anyone found any suitable use for this feat?
In the core book says the following: Hidden - The creature knows your location but can’t see you.
And then we have this:
Lengthy a Diversion - When you critically succeed to Create a Diversion, you continue to remain hidden after the end of your turn. This effect lasts for an amount of time that depends on the diversion and situation, as determined by the GM (minimum 1 additional round).
For all intents and purposes if you use step, sneak or strike this feat doesn't affect the character at all.
Unless you are able to stay hidden if you critically fail in sneak action or the DM allows you to stay hidden while standing without cover.
maybe you have a tower shield or are covered but not hidden, and then the low-intelligence creature decides to attack another ally leaving you hidden for 1 more round while you take a portion and pray to heal as much HP as you can.
I don't know I must be with my imagination exhausted and my mind tired. I can't think of a proper use for this feat.Or when I get it, it's super ultra mega situational and maybe it's supposed to be like that "This effect lasts for an amount of time that depends on the diversion and situation, as determined by the GM"
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Honestly, this is one of the more straightforward things when related to stealth. Pretty much all the information you need is in the basic Create a Diversion action that Lengthy Diversion modifies. For some reason there's been a lot of quoting Lengthy Diversion, but not much of Create a Diversion, which is a lot clearer. It says, and I quote:
Create a Diversion wrote: Success You become hidden to each creature whose Perception DC is less than or equal to your result. (The hidden condition allows you to Sneak away.) This lasts until the end of your turn or until you do anything except Step or use the Hide or the Sneak action of the Stealth skill. If you Strike a creature, the creature remains flat-footed against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. This explanation is very specific and is almost identical to how stealth is typically described while behind cover. That's the whole point of the action. It might sound weird because this game doesn't have facing built into it, but in the world of the game creatures are going to be looking at some things and not at others. This action makes it so that they don't see you despite being out in the open because they're not looking at you. That doesn't make you undetected. They still knew you were there, and can guess you'd still be somewhere close by, but they don't know exactly where since they're distracted, i.e. you're "Hidden." The Lengthy Diversion feat allows you to create such convincing diversions that people keep looking in the direction you want them to (and notably not at you) for more than 6 seconds on a critical success (The exact amount is determined by the DM). The player still needs to sneak or step if they want to go anywhere, though. If they just start booking it then someone will notice either the sounds of them moving or a slight motion blur in the corner of their eye and whip back around to the target that they weren't looking at.
Yup, that's exactly right. It is pretty straight forward when you consider it is literally just making the NPC look the other way. This lets you sneak away without the normal restriction of ending a sneak action without cover or concealment getting you spotted. So you have time to leg it down the street and around the corner, for example, instead of just hurling yourself behind the nearest cart.
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