Hey there everyone, I'd like some assistance on this matter if anyone could shed some light.
So the situation is as follows, if a wizard, let's say level 6 casts create pit, which is now 30 foot deep and a large creature falls inside, let's say a troll..
Well I have several things I'd like to ask here and more questions may arise as a result of this, but let's start with this:
1. Can this troll begin to chimney climb up the pit? I know this is somewhat controversial and many don't agree on this but I'm curious how would people rule on it, I personally lean towards yes and would lower the DC from 25 to 15.
2. While the troll is climbing, say he reaches the half way point..it says in the vertical reach that a large creature can reach up 16 feet under acrobatics, does that mean that the troll can now just reach up with his hand and pull himself out?
3. Alongside point 2, can the troll do a little jump while climbing and then grab hold of the edge with the vertical reach and climb out? Basically can you jump while in the middle of climbing, say if you start your round say 10 feet off the ground and you decide to do a vertical jump?
1. To the troll a 10' wide pit is ~ the same as a 5' wide pit to a medium size character. I think that's a bit wide to chimney climb. i.e. No, I'd leave the climb DC as it was.
2. Probably, though that's another, separate move action.
3. A vertical jump with no running start is hard enough, with only a vertical surface to jump off it's even harder. Just consider a teensy little jump to be built into part 2 - could you reach up 8'? I can't.
I don't know how much climbing avr has done, but I'm gonna disagree with point 1. I could absolutely use a 5 foot chimney to climb. Much bigger would definitely be harder (3-4 feet is probably optimal), but 5 feet is doable by bracing.
Point 2. I'd handle this like you handle a person who missed a jump by 5 or less and is hauling themselves up a ledge. I've just mind-blanked and can't remember what this is (A lower DC climb check I guess).
Part 3. This depends somewhat on handholds, but look up "rock climbing dino" on youtube or something, you can absolutely get a jump off a wall. Most of the people you see probably have like a +20 in Acrobatics and Climb, but it's doable.
Also I don't know what you meant exactly avr, but I'm 6'2" tall and I can absolutely reach 8' without jumping.
I'm...less tall. Noticeably. I haven't done any climbing since I was a kid and even shorter, either. I'll take your word for it on what you could reach and climb.
The D&D 3.x rules on a missed jump are these though:
Quote: If your check succeeds, you land on your feet at the far end. If you fail the check by less than 5, you don’t clear the distance, but you can make a DC 15 Reflex save to grab the far edge of the gap. You end your movement grasping the far edge. If that leaves you dangling over a chasm or gap, getting up requires a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. i.e. a move action and a DC 15 climb check.
Gah I must be tired, I looked at that exact paragraph and missed the end bit ablut the climb check =P
Yeah Paizo's rules usually don't take into account "minor" differences in size. A 5' tall person and a 7' tall person have the same space, reach, etc dispite the huge differences it'd make in real life. I can imagine a 5 foot wide chimney would seem insurmountably wide to someone 5 feet tall, but probably cramped to someone 7 feet tall.
I guess it's a judgement call as to whether you think the troll is a "large-large" or a "small-large", but it's probably worth making a ruling based on size categories so people don't start cheezing the system - "I'm Medium, but I'm 7'9" so I can step over that dwarf."
Since the game only really works in five-foot chunks, I think we should say that you can chimney-climb in a pit that takes up the same amount of space as your character, since the alternative is to say that it only works if you somehow fall into a pit that is narrower than your character. And if that happens, you'll be suffering from Squeeze effects, which would halve your speed while climbing.
Daermoth wrote: Hey there everyone, I'd like some assistance on this matter if anyone could shed some light.
So the situation is as follows, if a wizard, let's say level 6 casts create pit, which is now 30 foot deep and a large creature falls inside, let's say a troll..
Well I have several things I'd like to ask here and more questions may arise as a result of this, but let's start with this:
1. Can this troll begin to chimney climb up the pit? I know this is somewhat controversial and many don't agree on this but I'm curious how would people rule on it, I personally lean towards yes and would lower the DC from 25 to 15.
I'm thinking yes.
Create Pit wrote: 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels Trolls are Size Large.
Troll wrote: Large humanoid (giant)... Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft Unless your Wizard is casting more create Pit spells to make the Pit wider and longer (I'm not at all certain that would work: a Created Pit is an extra-dimensional space!), this pit is going to be a snug fit for a Troll, and chimney climb is exactly what this will be.
Daermoth wrote: 2. While the troll is climbing, say he reaches the half way point..it says in the vertical reach that a large creature can reach up 16 feet under acrobatics, does that mean that the troll can now just reach up with his hand and pull himself out? I'd say it's possible in principle. The question is what is the DC?
Acrobatics wrote: The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed... four times (if vertical). So 16', Times 4 = DC 64. I don't see any situational modifiers that adequately explain jumping from a position where you are climbing up a sheer rock face squeezed in a tight space, but I'd impose a severe penalty on that. Say +5 for severely sloped and another +5 for narrow ledge.
Daermoth wrote: 3. Alongside point 2, can the troll do a little jump while climbing and then grab hold of the edge with the vertical reach and climb out? Basically can you jump while in the middle of climbing, say if you start your round say 10 feet off the ground and you decide to do a vertical jump? So I think I covered the DC of making that vertical jump. The question is catching himself.
Climb wrote: It’s practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling. Make a Climb check (DC = wall’s DC + 20) to do so. A Troll's reach is 10', so you were asking when the Troll can reach the top, can he just pull himself up? I don't see a rule describing this. is this an Acrobatics check or a Climb Check? I think that having access to the edge of the pit should give you some kind of bonus.
I think having rules for wall-jumping while climbing and grabbing hold of the edge when you near the top is needless complexity. However, for simplicity, I give characters a 'pulling yourself up' bonus where they can move for free to an adjacent safe space out of the pit as soon as they climb high enough. I'm not sure if that's codified in the rules anywhere, but it feels like it ought to work that way.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: A Troll's reach is 10', so you were asking when the Troll can reach the top, can he just pull himself up? I don't see a rule describing this. is this an Acrobatics check or a Climb Check? I think that having access to the edge of the pit should give you some kind of bonus. The particular rules I was mentioning for pulling himself up would be a combination of
"The maximum vertical reach (height the creature can reach without jumping) for an average creature of a given size is shown on the table below. (As a Medium creature, a typical human can reach 8 feet without jumping.)"
"If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check."
It is all under acrobatics, so if the troll climbed up to 15 feet in the pit, I could see him being able to pull himself out with one move action since it specifies in that table that large creatures have a 16 foot vertical reach.
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