hobgoblin ruffian rogue question

[pfann]

Let's say I have a hobgoblin ruffian racket rogue with hobgoblin
weapon familiarity

1. rogues get sneak attack damage with agile or finesse weapons-

"When your enemy can’t properly defend itself, you take advantage to
deal extra damage. If you Strike a creature that has the flat-footed
condition with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse
unarmed attack, or a ranged weapon attack, you deal an extra 1d6
precision damage. For a ranged attack with a thrown melee weapon, that
weapon must also be agile or finesse."

2. rogues with ruffian racket can get sneak attack damage with any
simple weapon as long as the damage die is not larger than d8-

"You use whatever tools you have at hand to get the job done. You can
deal sneak attack damage with any simple weapon, in addition to the
weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature. When you critically
succeed at an attack roll using a simple weapon and the target has the
flat-footed condition (unable to focus on defending itself), you also
apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you’re
wielding (page 283). You don’t gain these benefits if the weapon has a
damage die larger than d8 (after applying any abilities that alter its
damage die size)."

3. hobgoblins with hobgoblin weapon familiarity get access to glaives.
glaives are martial but with the familiarity feat they are considered
simple weapons-

"You are trained with composite longbows, composite shortbows,
glaives, halberds, longbows, longspears, longswords, shortbows, and
spears. In addition, you gain access to all uncommon hobgoblin
weapons. For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial
hobgoblin weapons are simple weapons and advanced hobgoblin weapons
are martial weapons."

If I am reading this correctly, a hobgoblin ruffian rogue can use
simple weapons with d8 damage die or less to get sneak attack and
since a glaive is considered a simple weapon with the weapon
familiarity feat, he gets sneak attack damage with a glaive.

Am I reading this correctly?

[Gisher]

I don't think that works. Hobgoblin Weapon Proficiency only counts glaives as Simple "[f]or the purpose of determining your proficiency." For any other purpose they would still be considered Martial.

[Aratorin]

I agree with Gisher. A Glaive is not a Simple Weapon. Hobgoblins just get to use their Simple Weapon Proficiency with Glaives.

A Longspear is a Simple D8 Weapon with Reach though.

[HammerJack]

Right. You have to use the whole sentence.

[Staffan Johansson]

No. For one thing, there's the issue Gisher mentions, that the Weapon Familiarity feat only makes things easier from a proficiency point of view. But also, the Weapon Familiarity feats provide you with three benefits:

1. Training in a specified list of weapons.
2. The ability to access uncommon weapons with your ancestry trait.
3. Down-grading the "difficulty" of weapons with your ancestry trait by one step (advanced -> martial -> simple) for proficiency purposes.

Note that the list of weapon proficiencies listed in part 1 is not the same as the weapons with your ancestry trait listed in parts 2 and 3. Currently, there are no Hobgoblin weapons in the game, so for hobgoblins parts 2 and 3 doesn't do anything. But let's instead look at Dwarven Weapon Familiarity, because there it actually matters.

Dwarf Weapon Familiarity gives you trained proficiency with battle axe, pick, and warhammer. In addition, you get access to uncommon dwarf weapons, and treat martial Dwarf weapons as simple and advanced dwarf weapons as martial for the purpose of proficiency. The access affects two weapons: the dwarf clan dagger, and the dwarven waraxe. Since the clan dagger is already simple, it doesn't get affected by proficiency, but the waraxe is.

In essence, Weapon Familiarity will give you different benefits depending on your class. If your class normally only gets simple weapon proficiency, you now become trained in a number of (usually) martial weapons. There could be a martial weapon you get to treat as simple, and if you're a proper combat type there's probably an advanced weapon you get to treat as martial.

Note that you don't get automatic proficiency advancement with the list from part 1 of the feat. For that, you usually need the level 13 Weapon Expertise feat for your ancestry.

[pfann]

Ok. Longspear it is.

[S. J. Digriz]

I agree that Gisher et. al. are correct in a lawyerly fashion, but that ruling is less fun for the game. Hobgoblin thugs should be able to sneak attack with a longsword or glave. Why not? Would it break anything? Wouldn't the hobgoblin player be happier? Would it make thugs and/or hobgoblins too good? No it would not, and in fact, not allowing it ruins some iconic tropes, like a tengu thug with a katana.

[pfann]

S. J. Digriz wrote:

I agree that Gisher et. al. are correct in a lawyerly fashion, but that ruling is less fun for the game. Hobgoblin thugs should be able to sneak attack with a longsword or glave. Why not? Would it break anything? Wouldn't the hobgoblin player be happier? Would it make thugs and/or hobgoblins too good? No it would not, and in fact, not allowing it ruins some iconic tropes, like a tengu thug with a katana.

speaking of tropes...my whole character concept was a hobgoblin ruffian rogue whose former occupation was executive protection for the CEO of the local "waste management company" I had an image of him pushing people away from the "boss" with his glaive. Long spear will work, just not quite as bad-ass looking.

[lemeres]

S. J. Digriz wrote:

I agree that Gisher et. al. are correct in a lawyerly fashion, but that ruling is less fun for the game. Hobgoblin thugs should be able to sneak attack with a longsword or glave. Why not? Would it break anything? Wouldn't the hobgoblin player be happier? Would it make thugs and/or hobgoblins too good? No it would not, and in fact, not allowing it ruins some iconic tropes, like a tengu thug with a katana.

Well, they can currently use short swords and long spears for similar flavor.

I get that it might seem less fun... but you have to look at it from a long term perspective. Using that kind of substitution is usually a bad practice, since there may eventually be a combo of race, weapon, and class/feat ability that could be exploited. Future proofing is a good practice.