RAW: Dimensional Savant and Outflank should work together, right?

[CinderAshemount]

So I'm currently building a Shadow Dancer that builds out of the Shadow Walker rogue archetype and wanted to go the two weapon fighting route. (Yes, I know the community is divided over the validity of two weapon fighting outside of fighters.)

I've been wanting to utilize the Dimensional Feat tree for a while now so I planned to use all of them and was looking into feats that would compliment them. Some of the members of one of the games I am playing in were talking about utilizing some teamwork feats in the future and the idea to use Outflank hit me.

As written it technically should work with Dimensional Savant but I can't find an official ruling beyond the whole,"All instances of 'an ally' are treated as 'you and a ally'" thing. After bringing it up with my GM he said he wouldn't let it work because rules as intended teamwork feats require you and a separate entity to have them.

Is this accurate or has there been any official ruling on it? I've searched and searched and all I've found was a message board asking basically the same thing from 6 years ago.

[Cavall]

You are often considered your own ally. However outflank asks for you AND an ally, which is more than one.

No technically about it. Your GM was right.

It will allow those allies better flanking chances. Which is always great.

[MrCharisma]

Personally I think Outflank WOULD work with Dimensional Savant, since dimensional Savant lets you flank with yourself.

However if you've already asked your GM and he said no then that solves it for your game.

It is a corner case though.

[Cavall]

Unquestionably you can flank with yourself. That part is satisfied. However nothing in the tree says you count as yourself AND an ally, which is a condition that must be met.

MrCharisma stated the only point that needs to be made though. GM choice. GM called.

[CinderAshemount]

The only reason I was asking because my GM said he could be swayed if there was an official ruling on it. I want sure if there was one or not.

[Scavion]

It's a fair gm call. I think RAW supports the usage of Outflank and since it's such a heavy feat investment I think it should be fine.

You are considered your own ally.

Dimensional Savant wrote:

You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.

Outflank wrote:

Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature...

I think Dimensional Savant overrides the need for needing a separate person to flank with and considers you multiple entities for the purpose of flanking.

To parse it further, all Outflank cares about is "Are you flanking and both have the feat?" To which I would say yes.

[Claxon]

The bonus for flanking increasing from +2 to +4 doesn't bother me, but scoring a crit and getting to give yourself another attack does.

Personally I lean to no, Outflank requires someone besides yourself to function (that is the whole spirit of Teamwork feats).

But I also don't think it's the end of the world to allow it either.

And as far as I know there are no official rulings on this specific interaction.

[MrCharisma]

Oh yeah I totally forgot about the crit-bonus.

I think that makes sense, you'd get the +2 to hit when flanking, but not the free attacks on crits.

[dunelord3001]

Absolutely not. To me it's odd that you would even ask.

[AwesomenessDog]

Claxon wrote:

The bonus for flanking increasing from +2 to +4 doesn't bother me, but scoring a crit and getting to give yourself another attack does.

Personally I lean to no, Outflank requires someone besides yourself to function (that is the whole spirit of Teamwork feats).

But I also don't think it's the end of the world to allow it either.

And as far as I know there are no official rulings on this specific interaction.

My justification to this (had a discussion with a player just for funsies about this feat line) was that the outflank AoO is intentionally given to someone else besides you, so regardless of how the rest works, you can't give yourself an AoO from a crit.

Headcanon was that if you were at point A, then jumped to point B which flanks with point A and attacked for a crit, you still flank and therefore gain a +4 to attack but the version of you that was at point A is specifically the person who gains the AoO, not the version of you at point B who critted, so because there's not anyone actually there at point A anymore you can't take an AoO anymore.