I'm trying to convert my Kobold Drunken Master Monk from 5e to Pathfinder, and I need some help trying to keep some of the flavor while also not being COMPLETELY useless.
I understand Kobold + Monk/Brawler is a terrible idea mechanically, but I'd rather play a suboptimal character that keeps my flavor than scrap all of my flavor and build a kobold caster or archer or something.
Gremmel of the Overflowing Cups was a Drunken Master Monk in 5e that used two pewter beer steins as monk weapons. He was a wyrmling kobold (in-setting they're kobolds with more dragon blood in them than normal) which gave him 1/day fire breath and resistance to fire damage. He owned a bar and was a brewer and a chef.
Despite being treated like royalty in his home town for being dragon-blooded, Gremmel is a common 'bold with a disdain for dragon worship as a whole. He's a simple man who punches problems he can't talk away.
His stats in 5e were: STR 12, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 13.
in Pathfinder we're doing 25 point buy and Kobolds have a staggering -2 CON and -4 STR, and a piddly baby +2 Dex.
I'm considering replacing the +1 natural armor with Fire Resist 5, replacing Darkvision with Day Raider, which removes sunlight sensitivity and grants Low Light vision, and replacing Crafty with Wild Forest Kobold (+2 +class Perception/Survival) or Wyrmcrowned (+2 +class to Diplomacy or Intimidate).
I'm aware of 3 options to make Gremmel in Pathfinder.
1: Unchained Monk
I've read a bit about Unchained Monk, but tbh Pathfinder makes my head hurt. From what I gather, Monk is a decent damage dealer and has good defensive options, like adding wisdom to AC and stuff. This is what I'm currently considering as my main option.
2: Brawler
From what I've read, Brawler is good for versatility and maybe combat maneuvers, but being small is going to ruin my chances of being any good at combat maneuvers, so this sort of feels like it's out the window. It also depends really heavily on the ability to change out combat feats, and looking at Pathfinder's feat list drains years from my life.
3: Elemental Ascetic Kineticist (Fire).
This might work best for viability because it doesn't depend on my strength to deal damage, and I still get some of the monk's defensive abilities. My biggest problem here is that I don't see Gremmel as some kind of mystic psionic that's lighting his fists on fire with his mind.
If anyone can give me some tips on this, I'd be very grateful.
EDIT: He's level 5.
It's not a powerful option, but a drunken master archetype for the core monk (not unchained) does exist. If your GM accepts that drunken ki can be used for any purpose that ordinary ki can be, then take the qinggong archetype as well and you can use alcohol to spit fire (scorching ray).
If you want to beat people up with beer steins then an different (and incompatible with drunken master) archetype, the monk of the empty hand might be better. As with most of the flavourful or stronger monk archetypes it doesn't work with unchained monk. Go for the shikigami style feat line.
Gremmel of the Overflowing Cups was a Drunken Master Monk in 5e that used two pewter beer steins as monk weapons. He was a wyrmling kobold (in-setting they're kobolds with more dragon blood in them than normal) which gave him 1/day fire breath and resistance to fire damage.
Which parts of that do you care about (the most)? Because while the individual parts are all possible, the combination isn't, at least not mechanically sensibly.
• Is attacking with tankards important?
• Is the breath weapon important?
• What Monk stuff (if any) do you want?
• Do you want a character that drinks alcohol in combat?
The main issue is fighting with tankards. While that is possible, it's hard to make it good. Getting it to work with an unchained Monk is rather complicated and requires more gold than you should have at 5th level. Using it as an improvised weapon with the cMonk of the Empty Hand is easy, but much weaker. There's a Brawler archetype that works (possibly combined with an archetype that trades out Martial Flexibility in favor of a strength boost), but it's not exactly overwhelming, either.
There's a feat that makes tankards count as light maces, so you could use them as regular weapons, but that doesn't work with Monk abilities, and only helps with a Brawler because you could use Weapon Fienesse with it.
The probably biggest issue is that you really want a dex-based build, but that's impossible with improvised weapons, and even with the mentioned feat you'd only get dex to attack rolls and not damage rolls.
If an unarmed build is okay, it gets much easier. An unMonk could easily have a tankard in the hand at all times, can get a Breath Weapon at 8th level, is fairly easy to make work dex-based, and is overall a rather good class.
unMonk and Kineticist are the only non-caster options for a breath weapon at reasonable level that I see.
If you aren't fixated on Monkish stuff, there're multiple options for drinking in combat, with or without mechanical affects from alcohol, at varying degrees of power.
One thought. Could Gremmel be a rogue? With the feat Derklord mentions (Divine fighting technique: Cayden Cailean's Blade and Tankard) to make tankards work as light maces, and the unchained rogue's ability to make a light weapon use dexterity to damage you could be reasonably effective in a fight.
A fiery breath weapon worth having is admittedly difficult with a kobold rogue. You could do it as a rogue 3 / slayer 2 perhaps with the energy mastery feat to draw out a burning hands spell from a magic item, and a bit of sleight of hand might make that look like your own. Or if you get both the draconic aspect and draconic magic feats you could get a burning hands spell (or pyrotechnics) from your own body.
Monk (Or Unchained Monk) Scaled Fist swaps in Draconic themed options for the Monk and lets him use CHA instead of WIS.
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Spheres of Might is probably going to be quite helpful. Unfortunately Kobold stats are terrible so it is hard to make them work.
This SoM monk archetype is all about being drunk. It pairs well, obviously, with the Barroom Sphere. The Finesse Fighting talent from the Equipment Sphere will help a lot too.
I appreciate all the responses!
I've eliminated Brawler as a potential option because from what I've read, Brawler depends a lot on Strength and size to do combat maneuvers and Kobold makes out badly on both of those fronts.
My most likely course of action is going to be Unchained Monk. My DM has allowed me to use the Drunken Monk archetype with Unchained, just replacing the traits at the levels you get them, or adding them to the pool of ki powers if they replace something in the optional ki power list.
My GM is also working with me on the steins. He mentioned probably making them a magic item. I don't know what type of weapon he's going to count them as, but the beer steins probably won't be a big problem.
As an Unchained Monk I'm currently sitting as STR: 12(11+1), DEX: 16, CON: 12, INT: 10, WIS: 14, CHA: 13
For feats I've got Draconic Aspect, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, and I'm not sure for my 5th level feat.
Drunken Master gives me Drunken Ki at 4 instead of Still Mind, and Drunken Strength at 5 instead of Purity of Body.
I was considering Catch Off-Guard so I could just barroom brawl and grab random stuff to fight with, but I don't actually think I can flurry with improvised weapons? I'm unsure.
@derklord The breath weapon isn't super important, but the other things kinda are. I think this Unchained Drunken Master thing kinda does what I want. The dragon breath I can do with a feat, even though it's not entirely worthwhile.
@avr the effects of Rogue would be nice, but I don't think the flavor fits him. Sneak attack would be a nice way to round out my crap damage, though.
@Scottwilhelm My GM isn't opposed to homebrewing items, but he doesn't like homebrew feats and things because they can get wonky and unbalanced.
For feats I've got Draconic Aspect, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike, and I'm not sure for my 5th level feat.
As I've said, on a kobold, there's basically no way around Weapon Finesse. You should also get an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists.
As an Unchained Monk I'm currently sitting as STR: 12(11+1), DEX: 16, CON: 12, INT: 10, WIS: 14, CHA: 13
Improving your strength costs way too much. Qualifying for Power Attack would be awesome just so you can get Jabing Master (maybe you can ask your GM to let you qualify with Piranha Strike instead, it's mainly a tax feat either way), but the cost is just crazy.
Does the Cha have to be that high? It's a Monk's dump stat.
My GM is also working with me on the steins. He mentioned probably making them a magic item. I don't know what type of weapon he's going to count them as, but the beer steins probably won't be a big problem.
Your GM would have to throw you a huge bone to make them work. Dex-based unMonk is one of the most narrow characters when it comes to weapon selection that you can play in Pathfinder. Unless the GM makes the tankard a genuine magic monk weapon that can have the Agile enchantment, unarmed will be way better. Actually, even then unarmed would be better.
I was considering Catch Off-Guard so I could just barroom brawl and grab random stuff to fight with, but I don't actually think I can flurry with improvised weapons?
Correct. There's even a Ki Power to better use improvised weapons, but it doesn't allow flurrying with them, so it's useless. Only the mentioned cMonk archetype does allow that. It sounds weird, but in Pathfinder, at least for the good builds, an improvised weapon user carries their 'weapon' with them, and doesn't actually use found items.
The breath weapon isn't super important, but the other things kinda are. I think this Unchained Drunken Master thing kinda does what I want. The dragon breath I can do with a feat, even though it's not entirely worthwhile.
You can get Dragon's Breath as a spell-like ability via the Qinggong Ki Power at 8th level, costing 2 ki. Ki Powers are in high demand, but it's not actually a bad ability (removes your weakness against swarms, among other things), and since it fits the flavor, I'd go for it.
Sneak attack would be a nice way to round out my crap damage, though.
Sneak Attack isn't actually that good for increasing damage, because it's either way to conditional (especially for an unMonk), or you have to invest a lot.
@Scottwilhelm My GM isn't opposed to homebrewing items, but he doesn't like homebrew feats and things because they can get wonky and unbalanced.I don't recall recommending any homebrewing.
Sorry, I consider Homebrew and 3rd party to be under the same blanket. you mentioned Improved Catch Off-Guard.
@Derklord Can you enchant the Amulet of Mighty Fists with things like that? I thought you could only do that with weapons.
Improving Strength is kind of insane, but I don't want him to be physically weak, which is something I'm kind of struggling with. The whole 'making a well rounded character vs an effective stat block.
Jabbing master is kind of insane to get into, jeez. We talked about Pirahna Strikes, but I actually kinda forgot it existed. I should add that to my feat list. Jabbing Style itself sounds like a pretty decent option, though, possibly.
I meant to take Weapon Finesse, I should replace something in my current setup with that.
He has a high charisma because I felt like he should be likeable. It's something I could theoretically compromise on, but it's not something I want to compromise on.
Dragon's Breath sounds like a good ki power to get. I still might take the feat though. I kinda want him to be able to breathe fire now, and the Draconic Paragon looks kind of interesting? I don't know if it's actually a very good feat though.
@ScottWilhelm
That brawler/rogue build is kind of crazy, but it looks like it suffers a lot from not having Improved Catch Off-Guard.
As for grappling, I'm not really sure. Just seemed like a decent option to lock down things like casters. Pinning and tying up looked like a good option, but that's a chain I'm not sure I want to go down.
Brass Knuckles seem like a good option for the cups, yeah. I'll let my GM know about that.
Can you enchant the Amulet of Mighty Fists with things like that? I thought you could only do that with weapons.
"Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks." Basically, everything that could be placed on a light bludgeoning weapon can be placed on an AoMF, stuff like Dancing being obvious exceptions. There's also the Handwraps which are regular weapons and transfer enchantments on unarmed strikes, but the benefit of AoMF is that you don't need the usual +1 bonus to put special abilities (like Agile) on them, which means it's affordable at 5th level (costs 4k instead of 8.3k).
Improving Strength is kind of insane, but I don't want him to be physically weak, which is something I'm kind of struggling with. The whole 'making a well rounded character vs an effective stat block.
Since you don't wear armor or use heavy weapons, and (with an Agile AoMF) don't apply strength to attacks, the only things strength affects is climb, swim, and CMD. The former two you could easily replace with a ki power, and the latter you can increase just as well by spending the PB points on Dex or Wis instead. At least mechancially, ~8 strength would make a pretty well rounded character.
Flavor wise, Pathfinder kobolds aresupposed to be "fast but weak", "frail", "fragile even considering their small size", and "smaller and weaker than most other humanoids".
Jabbing master is kind of insane to get into, jeez. We talked about Pirahna Strikes, but I actually kinda forgot it existed. I should add that to my feat list. Jabbing Style itself sounds like a pretty decent option, though, possibly.
Remember that you can grab Dodge and Mobility as Monk bonus feats, so it's basically four regular feats. Not cheap, but doable, and just about the best damage source for a dex-based unMonk. Not the only option, of course.
Dragon's Breath sounds like a good ki power to get. I still might take the feat though. I kinda want him to be able to breathe fire now
Well, you have to decide: Do you want a once per day breath weapon that you will never use against anything but swarms because it's absolutely pathetic that works now, or do you want to wait a bit for a breath weapon with almost infinite uses per day (presuming you can use drunken ki for it, obviously,) that actually makes sense to use in combat? It's your character and your choice, but I know what I would pick.
Remember that with Drunken Master, you're basically using the alkohol you drank to fuel your breath weapon. If that doesn't fit your character, I don't know what does!
Draconic Paragon looks kind of interesting? I don't know if it's actually a very good feat though.
Mechanically, the whole feat chain is horrible. It eats up most of your feats, and for that you get a super-limited use breath weapon that is so weak even with unlimited uses you wouldn't want to use it, a slow fall effect that's worse than a cheap ring because it only works half the time (you have to make a check with a skill you can't train!), and some save bonuses against super specific stuff. Overall, it's four feats for effects that I would think twice about to even spend a single feat on.
@ScottWilhelm: Holy crap, those builds are insane, and actually kinda really cool. I would definitely love to be able to wrestle a dragon down like that, but I think I'm going to stick down Monk. I've got a pretty good sounding thing going with Drunken Master, though I'm definitely going to look into how I can get a respectable grapple bonus.
@Derklord: I'm going to need to get my hands on an amulet of Mighty Fists, and/or handwraps for sure. I'm considering dropping strength down to 10 and putting the extra points into my con, so I can be a bit hardier. I think +1 HP per level might be a better investment than +1 to attack and damage, but I'm not entirely sure.
I just wish the Kobold stat block didn't feel so awful. It's only 4RP when most of the other playable races are at least 10.
I'm definitely going to pick up Dragon's Breath when I hit 8th level, and I realized I can take Scorching Ray from Qinggong in the meantime. I've decided to hold on to the one Draconic Aspect to get the 5 fire resist, though.
I've got a stat block pretty finalized. it's far from optimal but I'm kinda happy with it.
I decided to go with Unchained Drunken Master Monk. My GM's allowed me to use the chained archetype with the Unchained monk by just replacing the features where they come up in Unchained.
My stats after racial bonuses are STR 14, DEX 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 13.
My traits are Artisan (+2 Craft (Brewing)), Honored Fist of the Society (+1 Ki pool), Iron Liver (+2 to con saves for poison and drugs, +4 for alcohol), and Lovesick (-2 init and perception if I'm away from my love at the beginning of the day)
My feats are Improved Grapple, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, and Draconic Aspect (Red). I need to pick one more feat, and I'm mostly trying to choose between Throw Anything, Extra Ki and Improved Unarmed Strike.
I took Scorching Ray as my Ki Power, and Shattering Punch as my style strike.
My GM's given me a magic item called the Tavern Brawler's Tankards. They're a pair of enchanted tankards that count as +1 Brass Knuckles that use my unarmed damage. When I drink to gain Drunken Ki I gain a Sacred bonus to Strength equal to my total Ki, and the bonus ends when I expend my Ki pool completely.
I can also slam them on a surface to fill them with strong ale.
http://charactersheet.co.uk/pathfinder/#/statblock/5ee524c1872874000496bb34
Once I hit level 8 I'm considering multiclassing into Elemental Ascetic to reflect the development of his draconic blood, but I'm worried that might be a garbage class.