The Dark Secrets Revelation for the Oracle's Shadow Mystery says that it grants a number of spells based on level and Charisma:
Dark Secrets (Su): You learn the hidden secrets surrounding the casting of shadow spells. You can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1, maximum equal to half your oracle level) to your spell list and your list of spells known as divine spells. These have a spell level equal to their sorcerer/wizard spell level. You can add only illusion spells from the shadow subschool or spells with the darkness descriptor to your list of spells known in this manner. Each time you gain an oracle level after taking this revelation, you can choose to replace one of these spells for a new appropriate spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
As you gain levels and your Charisma score changes, does the number of spells granted change as well or is the number of spells granted static based on character stats at the moment the revelation is taken?
E.g., I take the Revelation at level 7, with a 17 charisma, and gain 3 spells. When I level up to level 8, and assign an additional point to charisma for a total of 18, do I gain an additional spell from this revelation?
This revelation looks like it's dynamic, changing as you go up levels yes - if your charisma or your oracle level increases after getting the revelation (as they should!) you'll get more spells.
This is the same thing as a spontaneous casters ability to swap out spells as they gain levels. It is to allow the spell caster to minimize the problems of not having level appropriate spells for a spontaneous caster to use as they level up. A lot of spells become completely useless after a certain level. Since spontaneous casters have a very limited number of spells being stuck with a spell like this can be crippling to the character.
By this line of reasoning you don’t gain more HP for a higher CON when it increases, because you cannot change your favored class bonus. The ability to swap out spells has nothing to do with the number of spells you gain. Dark Secrets says that add spells equal to your CHA modifier. That would indicate a change in your CHA bonus grants you the ability to choose more spells. If it had said when you gain this revelation you add spell equal to your CHA modifier you would not be able to gain more spells when it increases.
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Effects with the same source don't stack, they overlap (unless the specific text of the ability says that the stack).
As you are taking the same revelation, from the same mystery, the source is the same, and the final effect is that you get the same spells from all the instances of Dark Secrets.
For the second point:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Effects with the same source don't stack, they overlap (unless the specific text of the ability says that the stack).
As you are taking the same revelation, from the same mystery, the source is the same, and the final effect is that you get the same spells from all the instances of Dark Secrets.
This has nothing to do with stacking because you cannot take the same revelation twice. The question was if your CHA bonus goes up do you gain extra spells.
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This has nothing to do with stacking because you cannot take the same revelation twice. The question was if your CHA bonus goes up do you gain extra spells.Effects with the same source don't stack, they overlap (unless the specific text of the ability says that the stack).
As you are taking the same revelation, from the same mystery, the source is the same, and the final effect is that you get the same spells from all the instances of Dark Secrets.
jekeya was asking about taking the same revelation multiple times (BTW: you have a piece of the rules that says that you can take a revelation only once?).
When I posted your post wasn't jet visible, so I felt no need to cite jekeya post.
This has nothing to do with stacking because you cannot take the same revelation twice. The question was if your CHA bonus goes up do you gain extra spells.Effects with the same source don't stack, they overlap (unless the specific text of the ability says that the stack).
As you are taking the same revelation, from the same mystery, the source is the same, and the final effect is that you get the same spells from all the instances of Dark Secrets.
jekeya was asking about taking the same revelation multiple times (BTW: you have a piece of the rules that says that you can take a revelation only once?).
When I posted your post wasn't jet visible, so I felt no need to cite jekeya post.
I’m sorry but… nowhere in their post do they even so much as hint at taking it multiple times… I think you may have misread something…
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I’m sorry but… nowhere in their post do they even so much as hint at taking it multiple times… I think you may have misread something…This has nothing to do with stacking because you cannot take the same revelation twice. The question was if your CHA bonus goes up do you gain extra spells.Effects with the same source don't stack, they overlap (unless the specific text of the ability says that the stack).
As you are taking the same revelation, from the same mystery, the source is the same, and the final effect is that you get the same spells from all the instances of Dark Secrets.
jekeya was asking about taking the same revelation multiple times (BTW: you have a piece of the rules that says that you can take a revelation only once?).
When I posted your post wasn't jet visible, so I felt no need to cite jekeya post.
Sorry for the bump but I've also wondered about this.
Oracles can effectively take Dark Secrets at any odd level. Assuming the upper limit of "half your oracle level" rounds down, Dark Secrets gives a minimum of 1 extra shadow/darkness spell at level 1, and a maximum of 9 extra shadow/darkness spells known at level 19.
If that is not saying "It is possible to take the revelation multiple times?" I don't know what it is saying.
Maybe he meant to say "If you add a spell to Dark Secrets ...", but taking a revelation means taking it, not adding spells to it.
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Take at “any odd level” is not the same as “every odd level” he’s simply referring to the fact that it has no level requirement and could be taken at any level. Once you’ve taken it once the rules still apply and prevent you from taking it again.
What he’s arguing it that he believes it does not scale with level and stat changes. That if you take it at first you only ever get 1 bonus spell, and if you took it at 19th you’d get up to 9 (19/2=9.5 rounded down). Nothing about his post says anything in regards to it being taken multiple times.
An Oracle cannot take a revelation more than once as per this FAQ https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9nk0
Revelation: At 1st level, 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and so on), an oracle uncovers a new secret about her mystery that grants her powers and abilities. The oracle must select a revelation from the list of revelations available to her mystery. If a revelation is chosen at a later level, the oracle gains all of the abilities and bonuses granted by that revelation based on her current level. Unless otherwise noted, activating the power of a revelation is a standard action.
The bolded section specifies that an oracle gains all the abilities and bonuses granted based on his current level. So, as you level up you gain additional spells assuming your CHA is high enough. It makes no sense that you would gain spells when you level and not when your CHA increases.
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An Oracle cannot take a revelation more than once as per this FAQ https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9nk0
Revelation: At 1st level, 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and so on), an oracle uncovers a new secret about her mystery that grants her powers and abilities. The oracle must select a revelation from the list of revelations available to her mystery. If a revelation is chosen at a later level, the oracle gains all of the abilities and bonuses granted by that revelation based on her current level. Unless otherwise noted, activating the power of a revelation is a standard action.
The bolded section specifies that an oracle gains all the abilities and bonuses granted based on his current level. So, as you level up you gain additional spells assuming your CHA is high enough. It makes no sense that you would gain spells when you level and not when your CHA increases.
The text you cite doesn't say anything about taking a revelation more than once.
The link has the revelation that stops Oracles from taking a revelation more than once:
Oracle: Can an oracle select a revelation more than once?
No, unless the revelation specifically states you can.
Thanks for the link. I have always used them that way but was unsure of where it did say it.
The section you bolded only says that if you take the revelation at a later time you get the full benefits. And Paizo developers probably thought to add that text because some revelation says "you gt benefit X taking this revelation and at levels a, b, and c the benefit increase."
Someone could have read that as saying that you get the extra benefits only if you already had the revelation when getting to levels a, b, and c.
@willowontu maybe it is what he wanted to say, but he was unclear. Taking a Revelation is choosing the revelation when you get a chance to get it (by reaching the right levels or taking extra revelations as a feat), not selecting a new benefit from a revelation you already had.
So I did read "Oracles can effectively take Dark Secrets at any odd level." as taking it multiple times.
His following argument was: "RAW it would seem that no increase in CHA shifts that initial allotment". Taking that into consideration probably he meant that if you take Dark Secrets at level 3 you get 1 spell, if you take it at level 19 you get 9 spells. Still wrong.
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What he’s arguing it that he believes it does not scale with level and stat changes. That if you take it at first you only ever get 1 bonus spell, and if you took it at 19th you’d get up to 9 (19/2=9.5 rounded down). Nothing about his post says anything in regards to it being taken multiple times.Yes. Apologies for being unclear.
I guess really my question is whether the revelation scales with oracle level after you take it. If an 18 CHA oracle takes Dark Secrets at first level, RAW they can add one shadow/darkness spell to their list of spells known. Everyone seems to assume that at 4th level, that same oracle would suddenly gain access to a second shadow/darkness "slot", because their [oracle level/2, rounded up] is suddenly higher than 1.
Two things make me wonder whether this is the case. Firstly, the description doesn't say that's how it works. All the description says is that -- at the time of taking the revelation? -- you can add X amount of spells limited by your CHA and oracle level. Further, the description does mention a (limited, different) form of level scaling:
Each time you gain an oracle level after taking this revelation, you can choose to replace one of these spells for a new appropriate spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.Why would it scale twice? Additionally, there is this from the base oracle description:
Unlike other divine spellcasters, an oracle's selection of spells is extremely limited.If the whole point of the oracle class is they have a small spell selection to compensate for being 2/3rds BAB + ~full divine casters, it seems odd this feat would give them access to that many more spells.
For context: I'm a newbie and it's totally possible I've misread everything here. In fact if that's the case I'll be glad because it makes my level 4 shadow oracle a lot more powerful. Appreciate everyone's responses so far.
First, there is the piece of the Core Rulebook I already cited:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
The revelation benefit is part of the other bonuses, and increasing charisma though item, level increases, wishes, or other methods fall under permanent increases.
Second, the replacement doesn't scale the number of spells, it only exchanges them with new ones. It is a common feature of all classes with spontaneous spells. Some spell that is convenient a low levels is way less convenient at high levels and vice versa.
Third "an oracle's selection of spells is extremely limited" when compared to a divine caster that memorizes spells, as those can memorize any of the published spells for their classes.
A level 20 oracle that spends every preferred class bonus to learn new spells and every feat to take extra spells knows 101 spells, cantrips and mystery spells included, if I am not mistaken.
The oracle spell list in Archive of Nethys has 142 1st level spells. Probably the full list of Paizo oracle spells includes about a thousand spells. 10% of the full list after expending everything to get more spells is "extremely limited".
The trick is that a lot of the spells in the complete list are very situations (and so more useful in scroll form), or non-interesting for most builds. So a the approximately sixty spells an oracle gets without spending too many resources are more than sufficient in most instances.
Dark Secrets (Su): You learn the hidden secrets surrounding the casting of shadow spells. You can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1, maximum equal to half your oracle level) to your spell list and your list of spells known as divine spells. These have a spell level equal to their sorcerer/wizard spell level. You can add only illusion spells from the shadow subschool or spells with the darkness descriptor to your list of spells known in this manner. Each time you gain an oracle level after taking this revelation, you can choose to replace one of these spells for a new appropriate spell on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
Nowhere in the description of Dark Secrets does it state when you take this revelation or at the time you take this revelation. It simply states that you add a number of spells equal to your CHA modifier, but no more than half your oracle level. Revelations scales up as you level up. If they did not the saving throw of the revelation (on those that require a save) would also remain static. When an oracle takes a revelation, he could have taken earlier it also scales up. Every game effect that is level dependent also scales up as your character gains levels, unless specifically called out as not doing so.
The descriptions of revelations specifically state that when an oracle takes a revelation, they qualified for at an earlier level they gain all the abilities and bonuses granted by that revelation based on their current level. This is to make sure that when an Oracle chooses a revelation it has the same effect no matter when it was chosen. While not explicitly stated the reverse should also be true. When you take a revelation does not matter, unless the revelation specifically states it does. Some revelations specify that once you choose the option it cannot be changed. But other than those I don’t know of any revelation that does lock you into a less advantageous effect when it is chosen at a lower level.
All spontaneous casters are limited in the number of spells known. It does not matter if you are a divine caster or an arcane, or whether you have full BAB or ½ BAB. Adding 9 spells to this list from a highly restrictive list does not significantly alter that fact. Some races get extra spells known as a favored class bonus so could add as many as 20 extra spells to their list of spells known. While this is a powerful option it is not anything game breaking. The extra spells know use spell slots so are competing for another limited resource.
If the revelation does not scale up it is a lot weaker than any other revelation available to a 1st level oracle. Cloak of Darkness gives you a scaling bonus to AC and to stealth and lasts hours per level. Army of darkness allows you to conjure creatures with the shadow template and pick up augmented summoning without having to meet the prerequisites and/or any other feats that have augmented summoning as a prerequisite.