So this came up in our game this week. Our monk had a whip he had taken off of a corpse and wanted to use it to reach a wizard who was blasting us from the cavern ceiling.
Now, being a Monk, he wasn't proficient in martial weapons, but the "trip" entry for weapon traits says that "You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill."
So my question is: what is his bonus to hit? Is it his Athletics at +7? His Dex only at +4? Can he even use the trip with a whip if he's not proficient with it?
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My answer would be, yes he gets to add his Athletics proficiency, since the Weapon Trait clearly says that this is the proficiency that you use. If the Whip had been a +1 whip, you would also be able to add it's item bonus.
Nothing about Weapon Traits indicate that you have to be proficient with them to gain the benefits of their traits. This is odd, I'll grant you, but it is the way the rule works as I read it.
Yeah, there's no penalty for using a weapon to perform maneuvers if you're not trained. At least not that I can see. It's very odd, that someone who isn't trained can use it to perform a trip maneuver at range, much better than they could use it to attack someone but those are the rules.
Personally, if I were the GM I might say (as a house rule) that they can only use their dex + item bonus to hit (if it has it) with the whip since they're not trained.
So we ended up going back and forth about maybe he would take a penalty to try (say a -2) or something like that. I agree it appears to be weird the interplay between the weapon trait and proficiency.
He ended up just handing it to the Fighter who used it instead.
In this case there is a distinct advantage as the whip can trip at range. If the monk was adjacent they could trip by hand or leg sweep, and the whip would convey no advantage. In such a case I wouldn't care at all if they used their athletic skill.
But at range, when they will suck with a whip (at higher levels when untrained) it's very strange that they could use it at full effectiveness to trip someone.
This seems like something that should be addressed as an oversight IMO.
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Seems to be working as intended to me...a tool that works with a particular tactic is not suddenly far less effective in the hands of someone already good at that tactic. On the other hand, if the monk wants to try and hurt someone with the whip, he doesn't know how to do it, and it doesn't work as well for him.
See I view it differently, he doesn't know how to use a whip well, which means he shouldn't know how to whip it around someone's leg to trip them.
To me an athletics check basically represents a combo of strength and skill to basically pull or push on someone (basically what all the maneuvers are).
But when you introduce using a weapon in there that you're not proficient with, it seems like that should make you worse at it.
Both points of view are valid.
Personally, I would have made a restriction in the Trip trait (and similars), stating that you need to be at least Trained with that weapon for it to work.
Can anyone find a specific rules cite (or cites) that support either position?
The best I have is that the Trip (or shove or disarm or grapple) traits don't mention proficiency at all.
Obviously this is a bit of a corner case, as 90% of the time a PC would not be carrying a weapon they can't use, he just happened to have picked it up as loot a few fights earlier.
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RAW seems pretty clear.
Trip:
You can use this weapon to Trip with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Trip using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to take the effects of a failure instead of a critical failure.
It mentions the Athletics skill and the Trip maneuver.
Note: You can use Dexterity in place of Strength on the Athletics check to trip as well because of the finesse. Trip is an attack roll, and finesse lets you use dexterity in place of strength on all attack rolls with that weapon, not just strikes. This I actually love and would not change :).
This is a good catch, so he would have a +9 to trip with a whip, but only a +4 to hit with it.
Any takers on RAW for must be proficient with the weapon?
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Note: You can use Dexterity in place of Strength on the Athletics check to trip as well because of the finesse. Trip is an attack roll, and finesse lets you use dexterity in place of strength on all attack rolls with that weapon, not just strikes. This I actually love and would not change :).This is a good catch, so he would have a +9 to trip with a whip, but only a +4 to hit with it.
Any takers on RAW for must be proficient with the weapon?
Everyone is proficient with every weapon. Untrained is a proficiency rank, and has a proficiency bonus (although it is +0). The PF1 distinction between proficiency and non-proficiency doesn't exist anymore as far as I can tell.
Each rank grants a different proficiency bonus. If you’re untrained at a statistic, your proficiency bonus is +0—you must rely solely on the raw potential of your ability modifier. If your proficiency rank for a statistic is trained, expert, master, and legendary, your bonus equals your character’s level plus another number based on the rank (2, 4, 6, and 8, respectively). Proficiency ranks are part of almost every statistic in the game.
INITIAL PROFICIENCIES
At 1st level, you gain the listed proficiency ranks in the following statistics. You are untrained in anything not listed unless you gain a better proficiency rank in some other way.
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RAW is clear, you can use the whip to trip just fine, not being trained with it.
I just don't like it.
I like the idea of requiring being trained to be able to use the traits of a weapon.
RAW is clear, you can use the whip to trip just fine, not being trained with it.
I just don't like it.
I like the idea of requiring being trained to be able to use the traits of a weapon.
How about adding the Improvised Weapons penalty to the trip check? Would that make it feel better?
If you treat the whip as an improvised weapon, it would lose the trip trait, resolving the issue.
How about adding the Improvised Weapons penalty to the trip check? Would that make it feel better?RAW is clear, you can use the whip to trip just fine, not being trained with it.
I just don't like it.
I like the idea of requiring being trained to be able to use the traits of a weapon.
If you treat the whip as an improvised weapon, it would lose the trip trait, resolving the issue.
To expand on my previous comment, no I'm not particularly accepting of the idea of applying only a -2 penalty two the athletics check.
In my opinion someone who is bad at using a whip to attack, should be about as bad at using it to trip.
At higher levels the -2 penalty to athletics would still give a much higher bonus to the roll than the same character would have if they tried to make an attack with that weapon while being untrained.
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Note: You can use Dexterity in place of Strength on the Athletics check to trip as well because of the finesse. Trip is an attack roll, and finesse lets you use dexterity in place of strength on all attack rolls with that weapon, not just strikes. This I actually love and would not change :).
Are you able to support this with rules at all?
The Trip action has the Attack trait, but I don't see that meaning any rolls made with the action are Attack Rolls. Yes, MAPs apply, but that is it.
Mind you, my Callistrian Champion would love to be able to use her dex-based Whip to trip, so please, prove me wrong!
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Note: You can use Dexterity in place of Strength on the Athletics check to trip as well because of the finesse. Trip is an attack roll, and finesse lets you use dexterity in place of strength on all attack rolls with that weapon, not just strikes. This I actually love and would not change :).Are you able to support this with rules at all?
The Trip action has the Attack trait, but I don't see that meaning any rolls made with the action are Attack Rolls.
When you use a Strike action or any other attack action, you attempt a check called an attack roll.
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To be honest I think you should only get to use the traits on a weapon if you are trained in it.
If you don't know how to use the weapon properly then I can't see how you should benefit from the special features it has and can only use it in the most rudimentary way.
Knowing how to trip someone is different to knowing how to trip someone with a whip particularly as whip is a martial not a simple weapon.
In this case I would let them use their Athletics proficiency bonus (- level) to trip using a whip. This clearly isn't rules as written though which doesn't care about weapon proficiency when using skills checks instead of attack rolls with a weapon.
To be honest I think you should only get to use the traits on a weapon if you are trained in it.
So if you have a weapon with the "versatile P" trait, you could use it for slashing damage but not piercing?
If I'm untrained with a dagger I could cut someone but not stab them?
I see where you're going for some traits (agile, finesse) but not others (versatile, nonlethal). I'm not sure the added complexity makes the game more fun though.
To be honest I think you should only get to use the traits on a weapon if you are trained in it.So if you have a weapon with the "versatile P" trait, you could use it for slashing damage but not piercing?
If I'm untrained with a dagger I could cut someone but not stab them?
I see where you're going for some traits (agile, finesse) but not others (versatile, nonlethal). I'm not sure the added complexity makes the game more fun though.
That is the balance though, what is fun for some isn't fun for others though I generally agree about added complexity. Still it feels odd that someone who has never used a whip is better at tripping than a whip expert without athletics? Is it fun for the whip expert to be outclassed at tripping with a whip by someone who has never used one but has the athletics skill?
Still I generally agree about added complexity is often not a good thing.
Regarding some traits being simple (versatile for example) as a GM you could make an exception or make it that you can only make skill checks with a weapon if you are also trained in the weapon.
Or just specify in the trait itself if you need training in order to use it.
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Or just specify in the trait itself if you need training in order to use it.
This would be my preferred "patch" as well. Each of the "combat maneuver" traits just add a line that says "IF you are at least trained in this weapon you can use Athletics....