The hunters edges of Flurry and Precision don't seems to require weapon or natural attacks. Flurry needs attacks and precision talks about "when you hit" which also happens on spell attacks.
So, with the Precision edge and a caster dedication, could I make a Cantrip Warrior? Dealing 1d4+1d8+3 with Produce Flame or 1d6+1d8+1 with Acid Splash at lvl2?
Would the precision damage even out the slightly lower spell hit chance of a caster dedication?
Yes you could do that.
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Correct, Precision & Flurry work (if vs. Hunted Prey).
At early levels, you and full-casters are both Trained, so it might be -1 difference due to stat which yes, +1d8 Precision makes up for (though you are losing an action setting up w/ each enemy).
As you hit 5th, you can close the stat gap, yet they'll soon (7th) be getting Expert which you can't get until 12th (via MCD) much later and +1d8 becomes less of a percentage of the whole. So long lag here, capped by a stat bump at 10th which favors them.
But at 11th (+2d8) and 12th (Expert via MCD) you rebound until they get to Master, which by the time you get, they'll be moving on Legendary. So at the late middle stretch you have -2 to their attack, but +2d8 damage. The end bump to +3d8 is nice, but the secondary d8s don't do much here.
So this is similar to the lag behind a Fighter, so hopefully that +Xd8 makes up for it in the same way!
Except...
-They're Cantrips. They're flavorful, and if you hit a Weakness, they're effective, but they can't be your main shtick any more than they can be for a full caster.
-That is a lot of feat investment to keep your proficiency up for what's essentially a side gig.
-Your Spell Attacks lag vs. your weapon Strikes, which can do comparable damage yet go vs. the same defense, AC. This realization saddened me.
-You don't get Electric Arc (which many adore) w/ Precision.
Except except...
-They're (mostly) ranged, and don't take hands or money investment. This gives you versatility for a melee combatant as well as energy options most martials have to buy. Ex. Hunt Prey/Ray of Frost vs. distant enemies, and you're still prepared for melee/Disrupt Prey when they close.
-The MCD gives you other spells (i.e. Shield & Heroism), maybe even Compositions which aid your attacks & spell attacks or a decent Focus Spell you can use every lull. And Precision works well here, since you can take one action to get your two Strikes & bonus damage (usually), and have two actions left to cast a non-attack spell.
I think this path's main strength is that you can be a decent melee combatant with instant access to ranged energy damage. It strains your other stats (assuming you start w/ 16 in a mental stat), but you're also getting spell/spell item utility/defense/buffs.
And that high mental stat likely opens up other party roles.
ETA: Apex Items in the late game will also make you fall behind (unless the Ranger hasn't realized by then an MCD + Cantrips can't fill a primary role).
Oh, and this also means Warden's Boon is a decent addition to a caster who uses Spell Attacks, not just fellow martials.
Yeah I'd put this one in the same category as cantrip sneak attacking rogue; cool side trick they can do, needs multiclassing feats, and best not to rely on.
While most will probably not agree with me, this is one of the few 'traps' of the game. A player that doesn't look that far ahead or doesn't have a huge amount of game knowledge might see this combo at level one, love it, and base their character around it. And as the game goes on their character concept slowly gets worse and they stop having fun.
It does make any Innate spells you might acquire better though.
It does make any Innate spells you might acquire better though.
Innate offensive spells are also vaguely trappish though, since you can't advance their proficiency without multiclassing.
Actually had a game earlier where someone new to PF saw what they thought was an awesome/easy combo in minor magic + magical trickster only to realize their attacks would just never scale unless they went all in on a multiclass dedication, which they weren't really interested in doing.
Thank you all for your comments!
Yeah, I know it can't be a main schtick. I mostly wanted to confirm that it works. And with and INT or WIS caster it meshes well with Monster Hunter.
If I built such a character I would max STR and INT or WIS, get a wizard or druid dedication, max Arcana/Occultism or Nature/Religion and get a big reach weapon and Disrupt Prey.
It does make any Innate spells you might acquire better though.Innate offensive spells are also vaguely trappish though, since you can't advance their proficiency without multiclassing.
Actually had a game earlier where someone new to PF saw what they thought was an awesome/easy combo in minor magic + magical trickster only to realize their attacks would just never scale unless they went all in on a multiclass dedication, which they weren't really interested in doing.
Yes, but it's nice to pickup something like Arcane Tattoos to give you an elemental attack for those times you need it, and this is icing on that cake.
Plus, if you have a dead Feat level, aside from Rogue, Wizard is the best MC Dedication to pickup, if you are just going to get the dedication. It gives you a good amount of utility for a single Feat.
Plus, if you have a dead Feat level, aside from Rogue, Wizard is the best MC Dedication to pickup, if you are just going to get the dedication. It gives you a good amount of utility for a single Feat.
Curious on this point (not necessarily disagreeing - just looking for more information). I'm looking at the four spellcasting dedications.
Wizard gives four cantrips known (and you can probably add more to your spellbook), but you can still only prepare two of them each day. But it only gives one skill - Arcana by default unless you already have that one trained.
For Cleric, you know all the cantrips. You can only prepare two of them. But it gives two skills - Religion and the Deity skill.
Druid also gives two cantrips prepared, but you know all of them. Also gives two skills - Nature and Order's skill. Also has some downsides in adding an anathema (though it can be argued that the major anathema against metal armor is part of base Druid class, not part of the Order). Anyway...
Sorcerer also gives two cantrips prepared each day. Two cantrips known initially. I think you can add more cantrips known - not entirely fluent in Sorcerer mechanics. It also gives two skills known - both determined by the bloodline chosen.
So why would Wizard be the strongest of them? What am I not seeing?
Plus, if you have a dead Feat level, aside from Rogue, Wizard is the best MC Dedication to pickup, if you are just going to get the dedication. It gives you a good amount of utility for a single Feat.Curious on this point (not necessarily disagreeing - just looking for more information). I'm looking at the four spellcasting dedications.
Wizard gives four cantrips known (and you can probably add more to your spellbook), but you can still only prepare two of them each day. But it only gives one skill - Arcana by default unless you already have that one trained.
For Cleric, you know all the cantrips. You can only prepare two of them. But it gives two skills - Religion and the Deity skill.
Druid also gives two cantrips prepared, but you know all of them. Also gives two skills - Nature and Order's skill. Also has some downsides in adding an anathema (though it can be argued that the major anathema against metal armor is part of base Druid class, not part of the Order). Anyway...
Sorcerer also gives two cantrips prepared each day. Two cantrips known initially. I think you can add more cantrips known - not entirely fluent in Sorcerer mechanics. It also gives two skills known - both determined by the bloodline chosen.
So why would Wizard be the strongest of them? What am I not seeing?
Wizard has the best Spell List and gives you 4 Cantrips known, plus as many more as you can find to add to your book.
The Cleric Cantrip list is... bad. Especially if you are taking it for attacking.
Druid is fine for attacking, but it's still not as diverse as the Wizard. It would certainly be my second choice, first for some specific builds. I would only do Druid if I was willing to spend at least one additional Feat to get Tempest Surge.
Sorcerer only gets 2 Cantrips unless you spend more Feats. Plus CHA is a dump stat for a lot of classes.
If I'm taking a Dedication for Skills, I'm going Rogue. Spellcaster dedication is for Spells, and the Arcane list is hands down the best list. You can take both Electric Arc and Shield for an offense/defense combo, plus whatever other 2 Cantrips your party needs. Light, Detect Magic, Read Aura, all great stuff.
Plus, if you have a dead Feat level, aside from Rogue, Wizard is the best MC Dedication to pickup, if you are just going to get the dedication. It gives you a good amount of utility for a single Feat.Curious on this point (not necessarily disagreeing - just looking for more information). I'm looking at the four spellcasting dedications.
Wizard gives four cantrips known (and you can probably add more to your spellbook), but you can still only prepare two of them each day. But it only gives one skill - Arcana by default unless you already have that one trained.
For Cleric, you know all the cantrips. You can only prepare two of them. But it gives two skills - Religion and the Deity skill.
Druid also gives two cantrips prepared, but you know all of them. Also gives two skills - Nature and Order's skill. Also has some downsides in adding an anathema (though it can be argued that the major anathema against metal armor is part of base Druid class, not part of the Order). Anyway...
Sorcerer also gives two cantrips prepared each day. Two cantrips known initially. I think you can add more cantrips known - not entirely fluent in Sorcerer mechanics. It also gives two skills known - both determined by the bloodline chosen.
So why would Wizard be the strongest of them? What am I not seeing?
I agree with you.
Few PCs I build have the 14 Int to MCD Wizard, at least at the early levels when it's less costly to get an MCD.Cleric & Druid may have inferior lists, yet know all the spells and work off of Wis which is worth more than Int. And it's not like a dabbler should be worried about covering all the best Cantrips. Do they get two good ones? Yep.
And Sorcerers require Cha, which as well as opening up an important role (face), supports any innate Cantrips you acquire, no matter the tradition. That really opens up options.
And all three have decent low-level Focus Spells which may be more influential than any specific Cantrip.
So yep, I wouldn't place Wizard first either, except maybe on a linguist who needs to pick up languages. Maybe.
Ray of frost is nice for a dual wielding precision ranger.
Plus, if you have a dead Feat level, aside from Rogue, Wizard is the best MC Dedication to pickup, if you are just going to get the dedication. It gives you a good amount of utility for a single Feat.Curious on this point (not necessarily disagreeing - just looking for more information). I'm looking at the four spellcasting dedications.
Wizard gives four cantrips known (and you can probably add more to your spellbook), but you can still only prepare two of them each day. But it only gives one skill - Arcana by default unless you already have that one trained.
For Cleric, you know all the cantrips. You can only prepare two of them. But it gives two skills - Religion and the Deity skill.
Druid also gives two cantrips prepared, but you know all of them. Also gives two skills - Nature and Order's skill. Also has some downsides in adding an anathema (though it can be argued that the major anathema against metal armor is part of base Druid class, not part of the Order). Anyway...
Sorcerer also gives two cantrips prepared each day. Two cantrips known initially. I think you can add more cantrips known - not entirely fluent in Sorcerer mechanics. It also gives two skills known - both determined by the bloodline chosen.
So why would Wizard be the strongest of them? What am I not seeing?
I agree with you.
Few PCs I build have the 14 Int to MCD Wizard, at least at the early levels when it's less costly to get an MCD.
Cleric & Druid may have inferior lists, yet know all the spells and work off of Wis which is worth more than Int. And it's not like a dabbler should be worried about covering all the best Cantrips. Do they get two good ones? Yep.
And Sorcerers require Cha, which as well as opening up an important role (face), supports any innate Cantrips you acquire, no matter the tradition. That really opens up options.
And all three have decent low-level Focus Spells which may be more influential than any specific Cantrip.
So yep,...
One downside for Druid is the lack of a Cantrip Expansion feat. BTW, here is my little Guide to Acquiring Common Cantrips on Google Docs.