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There have been so many threads complaining about the alchemist that I’m not going to bother linking to any. I’ve been mulling over solutions we could implement while we wait and see if Paizo is going to release more errata. Here’s my first draft.
Advanced Alchemy: Change the quantity of items in a batch from 2 to 4.
This always felt like an obvious step to me for several reasons.
[1) That’s how crafting batches of consumables normally works, so it is less complex to have one rule.
2)This helps low level alchemists avoid running out of bombs.
3) Any item that gets prepared ahead of time will have enough to hand out to an entire 4 person party. IMO, 1 batch being enough to give everyone in the party a mutagen or a bomb is a lot more intuitive and eases some of the decision pressure off of a player.
New 1st level feature: Quick Throw: One Action. You keep your items in easy-to-reach pouches from which you draw without thinking. You Interact to draw a bomb, and then Strike with it. Alternatively, you can draw and elixir and throw it to an ally within your bomb’s first two range increments. Your ally can use a Reaction to grab it out of the air. They must have a free hand to do this, but if they are holding something they can release their grip to grab the elixir as part of the reaction.
Quick bomber is such a required feat, and even non-bombers probably get it due to lack of better options. That’s obvious. Tossing elixirs to an ally is something I’m surprised didn’t make it into the standard rules.
Chirurgeon Research Field: You concentrate on healing others with alchemy. You start with the formulas for two of the following in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixir of life.
As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine check. You can use your proficiency rank in Crafting to meet the requirements of skill feats that require a particular rank in Medicine.
How most of us think this was intended to work, but doesn’t actually as worded.
New 3rd level Feature: Formula Advancement. If an item in your formula book has a higher level version, you can automatically add it to your formula book when you reach that level at no additional cost. This is in addition to the free formulas gained from your normal level advancement.
Another obvious one. This broadens your toolbox and again eases some decision-making pressure off your character as you level up.
Weapon Proficiency and Specialization are now on the normal martial schedule shared by barbarians, rogues, monks, etc. Not gonna bother typing it all out at this time. This keeps the alchemist behind martials for half the levels, since they don’t attack with their key stat, but gives them better accuracy and a little more damage. I’d need someone better at DPR calculations to say how they now compare to, say, an archer ranger or fighter.
5th level Field Discovery Given I already gave a better version of this out at 1st level, this needs replacing. Luckily I have ideas.
Bomber: You gain the Calculated Splash Alchemist feat. If you already have it, you can take another class feat that you qualify for. I actually don’t think Calculated Splash is required for all alchemists, because without a way to control who gets splashed, the extra damage becomes extremely dangerous to allies.
Chirurgeon: You can use the Treat Wounds activity to a single adjacent target in a single action. I thought about just giving increased Battle Medicine usage, a la Godless Healing, but I like that this allows you to remove the Wounded condition. This now the premier battle field surgeon.
Mutagenist: When ever you use a mutagen on yourself, increase its item bonus to a check or DC by 1. Honestly, I have half a mind to move this to 1st and put Mutagenic Flashback here, but I haven’t decided if Flashback needs a buff too.
New 7th level Feature: Powerful Alchemy As the feat. Also, maybe apply it to Advanced Alchemy items too? I haven’t figured out a way that would be a problem yet.
New Version of Perpetual Infusions: You have learned how to create perpetual alchemical infusions that can provide a near-infinite supply of certain simple items. You gain the ability to create two 1st-level alchemical items using Quick Alchemy without spending a batch of infused reagents. You can change what items these are during your daily preparations, but the items must be in your formula book.
At 11th level, you can select items of up to 3rd level, and when you reach 17th level you can select items up to 11th level.
Tying the this feature to the Research Field was a mistake, IMO, because Mutagens really need to be maxed anyway to overcome permanent item bonuses and antidotes/antiplauges are too niche. Being able to change it on the daily is just nice flexibility.
Gimme thoughts and feedback, please.
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There have been so many threads complaining about the alchemist that I’m not going to bother linking to any. I’ve been mulling over solutions we could implement while we wait and see if Paizo is going to release more errata. Here’s my first draft.
Advanced Alchemy: Change the quantity of items in a batch from 2 to 4.
This always felt like an obvious step to me for several reasons.
[1) That’s how crafting batches of consumables normally works, so it is less complex to have one rule.
2)This helps low level alchemists avoid running out of bombs.
3) Any item that gets prepared ahead of time will have enough to hand out to an entire 4 person party. IMO, 1 batch being enough to give everyone in the party a mutagen or a bomb is a lot more intuitive and eases some of the decision pressure off of a player.
I worry this just gives them too much stuff at higher levels. That's an absolutely insane amount of stuff that gets made every day once you pass the low level hurdle. Also it makes the already bad Quick Alchemy even worse comparatively.
I think an exploration activity that gives back reagents would be better for them.
New 1st level feature: Quick Throw: One Action. You keep your items in easy-to-reach pouches from which you draw without thinking. You Interact to draw a bomb, and then Strike with it. Alternatively, you can draw and elixir and throw it to an ally within your bomb’s first two range increments. Your ally can use a Reaction to grab it out of the air. They must have a free hand to do this, but if they are holding something they can release their grip to grab the elixir as part of the reaction.Quick bomber is such a required feat, and even non-bombers probably get it due to lack of better options. That’s obvious. Tossing elixirs to an ally is something I’m surprised didn’t make it into the standard rules.
Seems reasonable
Chirurgeon Research Field: You concentrate on healing others with alchemy. You start with the formulas for two of the following in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixir of life.
As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine check. You can use your proficiency rank in Crafting to meet the requirements of skill feats that require a particular rank in Medicine.How most of us think this was intended to work, but doesn’t actually as worded.
Also I thought the problem with the chirurgeon feature was that it also questionably doesn't scale Treat Wounds, as that requires increased Medicine proficiency. This fix doesn't change that.
New 3rd level Feature: Formula Advancement. If an item in your formula book has a higher level version, you can automatically add it to your formula book when you reach that level at no additional cost. This is in addition to the free formulas gained from your normal level advancement.
Another obvious one. This broadens your toolbox and again eases some decision-making pressure off your character as you level up.
Not really necessary. For one, it substantially reduces the cost of adding formulas to your book as now you only have to get the lowest level version. For two, Alchemist doesn't really even have enough unique high level items that aren't poisons to warrant this.
Could see this as a research field feature for specifically bombs/mutagens/elixirs, but not for all items.
Weapon Proficiency and Specialization are now on the normal martial schedule shared by barbarians, rogues, monks, etc. Not gonna bother typing it all out at this time. This keeps the alchemist behind martials for half the levels, since they don’t attack with their key stat, but gives them better accuracy and a little more damage. I’d need someone better at DPR calculations to say how they now compare to, say, an archer ranger or fighter.
I think I mathed this out once and the problem is that it makes sticky bomb absolutely insane. It brings their bombs up to par though.
New 7th level Feature: Powerful Alchemy As the feat. Also, maybe apply it to Advanced Alchemy items too? I haven’t figured out a way that would be a problem yet.
Would just give this at first level, on advanced alchemy as well. Have a hard time seeing what it's supposed to break.
New Version of Perpetual Infusions: You have learned how to create perpetual alchemical infusions that can provide a near-infinite supply of certain simple items. You gain the ability to create two 1st-level alchemical items using Quick Alchemy without spending a batch of infused reagents. You can change what items these are during your daily preparations, but the items must be in your formula book.
At 11th level, you can select items of up to 3rd level, and when you reach 17th level you can select items up to 11th level.Tying the this feature to the Research Field was a mistake, IMO, because Mutagens really need to be maxed anyway to overcome permanent item bonuses and antidotes/antiplauges are too niche. Being able to change it on the daily is just nice flexibility.
Agree
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My list of houserules has some similarity to yours, but is a bit closer to the base alchemist
Math Fixers
- All alchemical items created by Quick Alchemy or Advanced Alchemy use Class DC. Remove Powerful Alchemy. Potentially keep potent poisoner for crafters, though I would just make it a skill feat.
- Give all Alchemists the following for free:
- Quick Bomber at 1st level
- Calculated Splash at 4th level
- The damage portion of expanded splash at 10th level
- Move the other half of expanded splash to 1st level (and make it optional to use).
Research Fields
Perpetual Infusions
- For all research fields, change it to "2 level 1/3/11 or lower formulas you know for alchemical items" (at 7/11/17 respectively).
Bomber
- Allow Dexterity as a class stat instead of Intelligence.
Chirurgeon
- Change the text of the first level feature to "You may use Crafting instead of Medicine for all of Medicine's trained and untrained actions, substituting your proficiency rank in Crafting for your proficiency rank in Medicine". This solves the issue of needing to pump Medicine for Treat Wounds (the main use of Medicine) to scale anyway. You may also opt to allow them to use crafting to qualify for medicine skill feats.
Mutagenist
- Allow Strength or Dexterity as a class stat instead of Intelligence.
- Change the first level benefit to "You are trained in medium armor and martial weapons. At 7th level you become expert in martial weapons, at 13th level you become expert in medium armor and at 19th level you become master in medium armor".
Main Class features & Class Feats
- Change Quick Alchemy to expire at the end of the next turn. Change Enduring Alchemy to make the created item potent for 1 minute.
- Fix Alchemical Alacrity so that it doesn't require 3 hands.
- Add Poison Weapon to the alchemist feat list.
- Add the following exploration activity to make Quick Alchemy usable at low levels and so the Alchemist doesn't get reduced to a crossbow peasant that quickly at low levels:
Scavenge Supplies [Exploration]
You spend 10 minutes searching the area for things to use as alchemical reagents. You gain (2? 3? 1+One quarter your level?) alchemical reagents, up to the amount you have spent since you last used this activity.
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I like what you have there Exocist, that's similar to what I've been mulling over. Different key ability scores and medium armor for Mutagenists seem like no-brainers. I also think Mutagenists should just ignore the penalties to mutagens, though in all honesty I don't think mutagens are strong enough to also warrant a drawback in the first place...
I think I would give Chirurgeon Battle Medicine as a bonus feat at level 1, as well. I like Captain Morgan's idea of throwing elixirs to allies, or a ranged injection ability or something could be cool. Also, making some of those more mandatory feats part of a certain specialization's regular advancement would go a long ways towards giving the class freedom to pick up other cool options as they might come along.
I would say, though, that if they get a lot more at first level then they may not need a 1st level feat, and instead should be able to function well with what they get from their specialization.
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Some things I've been thinking about are more new abilities than quick fixes though.
I think instead of Scavenge Supplies, maybe an ability that acts as a sort of "focus reagent"--Inexhaustible Catalyst?--and allows the Alchemist to create a batch of two items with that focus reagent as if they had just finished daily preparations could work. Then other focus reagents could give the Alchemist some other things to do with that space.
I also think a few cantrip alchemy items would work as well and give the Alchemist some room to breathe with their reagents. These can only be created with Quick Alchemy and with a change to Quick Alchemy being until the end of your next turn by default I think they'd be useful:
- Elixir that acts as stabilize.
- A chitinous skin mutagen that gives scaling temp hp, starting with 3 maybe, and +1 armor until the temp hp disappears, at the cost of -5 speed and -1 Reflex
- 1d4 piercing physical bomb that does 1 point of splash, scales as a cantrip would. I think this would also act as a decent mechanism for many of those feats that require a bomb to work, so the Alchemist always has something to deliver those abilities with
- Injury poison that slows, maybe like tanglefoot
Things like that. They'd be in a similar space to cantrips because you'd be making them with Quick Alchemy and it'd be slow in terms of action economy, but then the Alchemist always has something that they can do without having to resort to being a martial with no combat feats.
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Another option to help with Bombers Specifically, and Mutagenists especially:
Give the Alchemist higher proficiency with Simple Weapons.
Remove Alchemical Weapon Expertise entirely.
At 5th Level add a feature like:
Simple Weapon Expertise: You’ve trained to more effectively wield the weapons you find in your lab. Your proficiency ranks for simple
weapons and alchemical bombs increase to expert.
At 13th Level add a feature like:
Master of Simplicity: You have honed your skill in using simple but effective weapons. Your proficiency ranks for simple weapons increase to master.
Then add a feature to the Bomber field, where they treat Bombs as Simple Weapons. This allows any alchemist to gain Expert training with Bombs, but allows Bombers to overcome them at 13th Level and become a master.
It also helps Mutagenists with using any unarmed attacks that they end up gaining.
In my opinion, Paizo is "stuck" considering the Alchemist to be a Caster. And in PF1, this was partially true, after all they could prepare potions and use spells like most other casters, just in a different form. This however has changed with PF2, where there is now a clear separation between Alchemical items and Magic. So stop treating them as an all up caster, and give them better training with their gear.
I really like the idea of scavenged reagents. The mix between prepared and spontaneous on alchemists could perhaps be made more explicit with them in mind.
Something like alchemists getting 2+level reagents during their daily preparation that can only be used to make items during that prep. Then having a focus spell, "infuse matter" that gives the alchemist int mod unstable reagents that can be used for quick alchemy.
The primary way an alchemist regains focus would be by scavenging for raw materials.
Giving them a focus spell makes them work more like existing classes, and leaves an obvious opportunity for them to create more free spontaneous things in combat, getting more focus points.
In my opinion, Paizo is "stuck" considering the Alchemist to be a Caster. And in PF1, this was partially true, after all they could prepare potions and use spells like most other casters, just in a different form. This however has changed with PF2, where there is now a clear separation between Alchemical items and Magic. So stop treating them as an all up caster, and give them better training with their gear.
Or keep treating them as casters but make their alchemical items as strong as spells.
Or keep treating them as casters but make their alchemical items as strong as spells.
In my opinion, Paizo is "stuck" considering the Alchemist to be a Caster. And in PF1, this was partially true, after all they could prepare potions and use spells like most other casters, just in a different form. This however has changed with PF2, where there is now a clear separation between Alchemical items and Magic. So stop treating them as an all up caster, and give them better training with their gear.
I actually don't like that option to be honest. I'd rather Alchemists maintain a niche; interesting effects that are non-magical and don't step on a caster's toes, while still being useful.
I would like to see the Alchemist transformed into the "batman" class. Super effective, with prep-time. And they are almost there as is, they just tend to hit with pillow fists. Addressing their accuracy is a solid step towards bringing them into parity with the other classes in my opinion.
Bombs are balanced against weapons. They deal similar damage as weapons, but have the drawback of being more limited than weapons in the number of uses you get per day.
So why are Alchemists relegated to being so inaccurate with them? Simply increase their training and you make up a lot of the difference imho.
Especially where Mutagenists are concerned. No matter what, a mutagenist is going to underperform versus a martial at a given level. Having a de facto 10% lower chance to hit will do that.
Upgrading their proficiency actually gives them a niche, without stepping on the toes of other martials. It makes them variable, with effects that typically come from feats for other classes coming instead from the mutagen that they select.
I'd also make the argument that a Mutagenist should gain better unarmored training than they currently do, as they just don't have the AC potential that other "front line" characters have. As is, you just can't get a Mutagenist into combat with any real confidence.
It comes down to how tight the math is in PF2 with regards to attack and defense. -2 is a harsh penalty in many situations. Proficiency neatly solves that issue, and may even allow an Alchemist to function reasonably well without any mechanical changes.
Though I will say that I do like the idea of "Scavenged" supplies. It gives the class some needed staying power over the course of the longer adventuring day in this system.
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Giving them a focus spell makes them work more like existing classes, and leaves an obvious opportunity for them to create more free spontaneous things in combat, getting more focus points.
Could work as a focus spell
Idea#1
Fabricate Reagents [Focus 1]
Casting Time: Free Action (Possibly 1 action?)
Trigger: Your turn begins
Duration: 10 minutes
You infuse supplies with just enough alchemical essence to remain potent for a brief duration. You gain 1 alchemical reagent which lasts for the duration and can only be used for Quick Alchemy.
Heightened (+2): You gain 1 additional alchemical reagent.
Idea #2
Fabricate Reagents [Focus 1]
Casting Time: Free Action
Trigger: You use Quick Alchemy
You replace reagents with supplies infused with alchemical essence. You do not need to spend alchemical reagents for the triggering use of Quick Alchemy.
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I think I'll crib some from here and mix and match.
INFUSED REAGENTS
2nd sentence: Each day during your daily preparations, you gain a number of
batches of infused reagents equal to your level + twice your Intelligence
modifier.
The idea is to buff the early level numbers of reagents, without too many knock-on effects on other abilities. This also adds more value for the Key Ability of Intelligence.
Quick Alchemy, add line:
Alchemical items you create on the fly are particularly potent. When you use
Quick Alchemy to create an infused alchemical item that allows a saving throw, you can change its DC to your class DC.
Powerful Alchemy removed, see below.
New 1st level feature: Quick Throw: > [[[One-Action]]]. You keep your items in easy-to-reach pouches from which you draw without thinking. You Interact to draw a bomb, and then Strike with it. Alternatively, you can draw and elixir and throw it to an ally within your bomb’s first two range increments. Your ally can use a Reaction to grab it out of the air. They must have a free hand to do this, but if they are holding something they can release their grip to grab the elixir as part of the reaction.
Shamelessly stolen. Seems cool.
Chirurgeon Research Field: You concentrate on healing others with alchemy. You start with the formulas for two of the following in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixir of life.
As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can
attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine check.
You can use your proficiency rank in Crafting as your rank in Medicine for all purposes.
Mutagenist Research Field: Add:
You’re trained in medium armor. When you gain light armor expertise, you also gain expert proficiency in medium armor, and when you gain light armor mastery, you also gain master proficiency in medium armor.
5th level Field Discovery: You learn a special discovery depending on your field.
Bomber: You gain the Directional Bombs Alchemist feat.
Chirurgeon: You gain the Battle Medicine skill feat. If you already have that feat the target of your Battle Medicine is only immune for 1 hour. At 13th level they are only immune for 10 minutes.
Mutagenist: When ever you use a mutagen on yourself, increase its item bonus to a check or DC by 1.
ALCHEMISTS'S FEATS:
1st
Added: [+[Crossbow Ace]+]
Added: [+[Sudden Charge]+]
Removed: [-[Quick Bomber]-]
8th
Added: [+[Batttle Assessment]+]
Removed: [-[Powerful Alchemy]-]
More conservative than some people's buffs, trying to focus on giving them options that are appealing as much as straight up power. Probably not enough to make the Chirurgeon decent yet.
I think I'll crib some from here and mix and match.
INFUSED REAGENTS
2nd sentence: Each day during your daily preparations, you gain a number of
batches of infused reagents equal to your level + twice your Intelligence
modifier.The idea is to buff the early level numbers of reagents, without too many knock-on effects on other abilities. This also adds more value for the Key Ability of Intelligence.
Quick Alchemy, add line:
Alchemical items you create on the fly are particularly potent. When you use
Quick Alchemy to create an infused alchemical item that allows a saving throw, you can change its DC to your class DC.Powerful Alchemy removed, see below.
New 1st level feature: Quick Throw: > [[[One-Action]]]. You keep your items in easy-to-reach pouches from which you draw without thinking. You Interact to draw a bomb, and then Strike with it. Alternatively, you can draw and elixir and throw it to an ally within your bomb’s first two range increments. Your ally can use a Reaction to grab it out of the air. They must have a free hand to do this, but if they are holding something they can release their grip to grab the elixir as part of the reaction.
Shamelessly stolen. Seems cool.
Chirurgeon Research Field: You concentrate on healing others with alchemy. You start with the formulas for two of the following in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixir of life.
As long as your proficiency rank in Medicine is trained or better, you can
attempt a Crafting check instead of a Medicine check for any of Medicine check.
You can use your proficiency rank in Crafting as your rank in Medicine for all purposes.Mutagenist Research Field: Add:
You’re trained in medium armor. When you gain light armor expertise, you also gain expert proficiency in medium armor, and when you gain light armor mastery, you also gain master proficiency in medium armor....
This is probably my favorite option so far. I especially like the Chiurgeon changes, the improved Battle Medicine is extremely thematic.
I think if you add beowulf's proficiency changes and a variable core stat then it's perfect (and also possibly introduce the focus spell discussed as a feat).
This is probably my favorite option so far. I especially like the Chiurgeon changes, the improved Battle Medicine is extremely thematic.
I think if you add beowulf's proficiency changes and a variable core stat then it's perfect (and also possibly introduce the focus spell discussed as a feat).
I wanted to avoid those changes specifically. As they are big numerical power buffs, so I thought I'd start simple, and if an alchemist player was miserable its easier to add them than take them away.
The +1's the mutagenist gets at 5th level in my changes could be expanded to the other research fields as a mid-way step aswell, for example.
This is probably my favorite option so far. I especially like the Chiurgeon changes, the improved Battle Medicine is extremely thematic.
I think if you add beowulf's proficiency changes and a variable core stat then it's perfect (and also possibly introduce the focus spell discussed as a feat).
I wanted to avoid those changes specifically. As they are big numerical power buffs, so I thought I'd start simple, and if an alchemist player was miserable its easier to add them than take them away.
The +1's the mutagenist gets at 5th level in my changes could be expanded to the other research fields as a mid-way step aswell, for example.
That's reasonable! I don't it would be too unbalanced, myself. They'd be on par to hit with other martials (maybe still less due to ability score differences) but they'd only have simple weapons and bombs if a bomber, the former of which are worse than martial weapons and the latter are limited use.
One thing I don't see many people considering is changing the infused reagent count to remove level scaling, ie: 10+ Int Mod at all levels. This would solve both the problem of having too few reagents at low levels and more than necessary at high levels.
You could also do 6+ 2x Int Mod, if you wanted higher reliance on Int.
I think that Level + 2xINT is more elegant because it reduces the strain of the early game, increase INT's value and it doesn't goes overboard while maintaining the progression.
10+INT (Static 14) or 6+2xINT (14, 16, 18) across all levels sounds really nice early game, but the lack of progression over levels will definitely become a frustrating aspect.
I also think that at later levels, having "too much" is not that bad, since a good chunk of these options can become healing, so you can increase the healing rate for the party (instead of stopping for 10~20 minutes, you can be ready faster and move along, in case time is an issue), alternatively there will always be reagents for unexpected situations (Poisons, diseases, etc).
If we did remove level scaling for reagent quantity, I'd probably remove the Int mod thing and just make it a flat amount because bonus spell slots are gone and it is simpler.... Buuuut we would need something for Int to do then as it is the key stat. Int to hit on bombs might be a good default option, and mutagenists could add Int to unarmed strikes or other weapons maybe?
That might be too much on top of increased proficiency but might be worth exploring.
So expanding on the above idea further:
Trajectory Calculation You are capable of using your understanding of physics and environmental factors to make up for any lack of grace when you lob an explosive. You can add your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with bombs. I think every alchemist would get this, not just bombers?
And then a Mutagenist Research Field thing:
Analytical Reflexes Drinking countless mutagens and risky experiments have permanently altered your metabolism, rewiring your nervous system to allow your brain quicker responses to danger. When under the effects of a mutagen, you can use your Intelligence modifier instead of Dexterity modifier to armor class. Any Dexterity Cap from armor still applies. You can also use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for any attack with an unarmed strike or finesse weapon.
I dunno how balanced the idea is yet, and I know PF2 is trying to do less stat substitution... But it does help with the class's MAD problems and I loooove the flavor of it.
So these are the changes I'm thinking of using for my group. Some are partially cribbed from here. Let me know if I've overlooked anything.
Bomber
Bomber can choose dex as key ability
Gains quick throw as a free feat at level 1
Gains Calculated splash for free at 5
//The best off at the moment, so the smallest changes. Just some free feats the were previously must haves. And a whole lot more bomb potential with infuse matter.
Chirugeon
May choose wis as a key ability.
Replace base feature with “The Chirugeon can regain focus by treating wounds or by successfully using battle medicine.”
Gains trained in medicine
Gains battle medicine as a free feat at level 1
Gains quick throw as a free feat at level 1
/*Very eh before. They can regain focus in combat with battle medicine. But without the craft to medicine they need both wis for medicine, and int for more reagents when they infuse matter.*/
Mutagenist
May choose dex or str as key ability.
Change the first level benefit to "You are trained in medium armor and martial weapons. At 7th level you become expert in martial weapons, at 13th level you become expert in medium armor and at 19th level you become master in medium armor"
Replace the level 5 field discovery with “When you consume a mutagen made with advanced alchemy or quick alchemy you may ignore the drawback”
/*The weakest field before imo. I'm not entirely convinced that mutagens need a drawback at all for anyone. So its an easy sell to remove them for the mutagen specialist. As an aside, they can function pretty well with no int as infuse matter is enough to get them the 1 mutagen they're likely to really want every fight.*/
Potent Alchemy (new)
All alchemical items created by quick alchemy or advanced alchemy uses your class DC.
Reagents and Focus
Only gain level of infused reagents each morning. Instead of level+int mod
//This is made up for with infuse matter
Gain a pool of focus points and a new focus spell. Alchemist’s regain focus by scavenging for raw materials in their environment.
Infuse Matter F1
Cast <A> Somatic
Duration 1 minute
You gain a number of temporary infused reagents equal to your intelligence modifier (minimum 1). These reagents and any items made with them can only be used for quick alchemy and they become inert when Infuse Matter’s duration expires.
/*The feature my rework is really all based around. This gives alchemists significantly more potential alchemicals per day/fight*/
Perpetual Infusions
Replace with, you gain another focus point. At 11th replace perpetual potency with a 3rd focus point, and when you regain focus as an alchemist regain 2 focus. At 17th replace perpetual perfection with “when you regain focus as an alchemist regain 3 focus”
/*Because they now rely on focus for bonus reagents I figured that instead of getting free, but not very good items it made more sense for this feature to just be more focus, for more free reagents. */
Powerful Alchemy lets you use your class DC on any alchemicals you use.
Potent Poisoner becomes a craft skill feat.
Quick Bomber becomes Quick Throw
Quick Throw <A>
You keep your items in easy-to-reach pouches from which you draw without thinking.
You Interact to draw a bomb, and then Strike with it.
Alternatively, you can draw and elixir and throw it to an ally within your bomb’s first two range increments. Your ally can use a Reaction to grab it out of the air. They must have a free hand to do this. [/list]
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So expanding on the above idea further:
Trajectory Calculation You are capable of using your understanding of physics and environmental factors to make up for any lack of grace when you lob an explosive. You can add your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with bombs. I think every alchemist would get this, not just bombers?
And then a Mutagenist Research Field thing:
Analytical Reflexes Drinking countless mutagens and risky experiments have permanently altered your metabolism, rewiring your nervous system to allow your brain quicker responses to danger. When under the effects of a mutagen, you can use your Intelligence modifier instead of Dexterity modifier to armor class. Any Dexterity Cap from armor still applies. You can also use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for any attack with an unarmed strike or finesse weapon.
I dunno how balanced the idea is yet, and I know PF2 is trying to do less stat substitution... But it does help with the class's MAD problems and I loooove the flavor of it.
Honestly... That's a very huge and resounding nope. Both are math enhancers much like PF11e and worse, they are must-have which is a huge issue. But both feats have an interesting concept but I think they would be "better" (as in more suited to PF2e) if they were like this:
Trajectory Calculation Your understanding of the inner works of the world allows you to make quick calculations that can leverage environment, creatures and surfaces to alter the path of your bombs. You can use a creature to alter your bomb's throwing direction or use a surface or creature between you and the target to increase the range increment to up to 10ft.
Basically, you can "kick" your bombs off things to bend around covers or use objects and characters to gain more range to your throws while also ignoring soft cover.
Analytical Reflexes When under the effects of a physically enhancing mutagen (I can't be bothered to search for a correct term right now, so its just things that enhance physical prowess) you gain a a reaction that grants +2 against a triggering attack (Rogue's Dodge) or reflex Saving throw. When under effects of a mental mutagen, you gain a reaction that allows to reroll a failed skill check, which ends the mutagens effects, or a +2 bonus on Will saving throws.
Basically, you get enhanced senses and mental capabilities while under mutagen effects, thus you have faster reactions or are able to quickly readjust your problem-solving abilities.
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Chirurgeon is very front-loaded and with feats that aren't Alchemist stuff. It is very mechanically strong, but it loses the alchemist's flavor in the process.
Also, instead of changing main stats right from the start, why not fiddle a little bit with just the proficiency for the class, to see how it goes? I say that because we're level 10 now and our alchemist has +19 hit while my monk and our ranger have +20 because we have 20 DEX now, I think this is quite alright for the class, the problem is after 13th level, which is when we will be getting Master on weapons and monk gets master on unarmored defense.
My suggestion? Copy the Rogue class' proficiency progression, because the alchemist is not so martially inclined as a Ranger and a Monk is just too different.
(I just looked the Rogue's proficiency progression... WTF Paizo!? It's a goddamn skill monkey class with double skill feats and increases while also having the SAME martial progression? Why the alchemist is so shitty?).
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Chirurgeon is very front-loaded and with feats that aren't Alchemist stuff. It is very mechanically strong, but it loses the alchemist's flavor in the process.
Also, instead of changing main stats right from the start, why not fiddle a little bit with just the proficiency for the class, to see how it goes? I say that because we're level 10 now and our alchemist has +19 hit while my monk and our ranger have +20 because we have 20 DEX now, I think this is quite alright for the class, the problem is after 13th level, which is when we will be getting Master on weapons and monk gets master on unarmored defense.
My suggestion? Copy the Rogue class' proficiency progression, because the alchemist is not so martially inclined as a Ranger and a Monk is just too different.
(I just looked the Rogue's proficiency progression... WTF Paizo!? It's a g&*%*!n skill monkey class with double skill feats and increases while also having the SAME martial progression? Why the alchemist is so s+@+ty?).
I'm hoping I hit a closer balance where those optional stats feel like a meaningful choice. Getting an extra alchemical, or 2, or 3, every fight from a higher int mod is pretty big. Choosing the other stats is a meaningful trade. This works into the idea that most fights take roughly 4-5 rounds, so a +4 int alchemist can use an item every round, but the +3int or lower alchemist will have to rely on something else for at least one round. This drops off later when you get more free boosts, but so does that gap from being a stat behind on your attack mod.
The other consideration there was that I wanted to keep the alchemists slower proficiency progression to open up letting them use more alchemy items. I'm aiming to have them sit closer to casters as opposed to martials.
Spells are stronger then alchemy items, so the goal of my changes was to give the alchemist more items in compensation. At lower levels, with a +4 int, and an average combat length of 4-5 rounds, an alchemist can comfortably use a single alchemy item every round forever. As they level up they can use 2-3 items a round. Helping to bridge that power gap between alchemy items and spells.
I am inclined to agree that I may have thrown a little bit too much at the chirugeon at level 1. I think I'll remove the free quick throw. One thing I was hoping to get in alchemical flavour on the chirugeon is using your medicine skill to support your alchemy skill, hence the focus point on battle medicine.
I think one of the best changes for the Chirurgeon is the clarification of being able to completely replace medicine with your Craft proficiency. I would go as far as to say that you don't even need it to be trained (useless hurdle just to eat a skill, I REALLY don't know why they designed it that way, it's just bad).
One suggestion, instead of Quick Throw, give it some special action like Quick Bomber but for healing items. You can draw and use a healing item on yourself or an ally.
Another interesting idea, in my opinion, would be something like this:
Alchemical Healing (2-actions): Quick alchemy to create and use a healing alchemical item. Your add your INT bonus for each die of the item up your INT, basically 3d6 = 3xINT (5d6=5xINT).
Alternatively, you can remove the last part with the restriction, but keep in mind that in the late game (the very rare 19th level) your alchemist will be getting a whooping +60 flat healing on top of the 10d6+27. Another option as limiting factor is to spend 1 batch of reagents per INT increase (so you get your +60HP, but you need to spend 10 batches of reagents).
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The problem with adding master weapon proficiency to the alchemist is twofold
1) Quicksilver Mutagens, which they can give to themselves and have on for every combat starting at 11th level, will push them to effectively one above master proficiency.
2) Sticky Bomb is already a competitive option with martial damage, giving them that +2 actually pushes it way over martial damage (that critical persistent is absolutely brutal).
If we did remove level scaling for reagent quantity, I'd probably remove the Int mod thing and just make it a flat amount because bonus spell slots are gone and it is simpler.... Buuuut we would need something for Int to do then as it is the key stat. Int to hit on bombs might be a good default option, and mutagenists could add Int to unarmed strikes or other weapons maybe?
That might be too much on top of increased proficiency but might be worth exploring.
I think requiring int for bomb damage and just giving them the option to key ability dex (bomber/mutagenist) or strength (mutagenist) is fine. Similar to Clerics, if you push them to straight Dex then they only really care about 3 abilities, whereas Clerics have Divine Font scaling off Charisma so they're given the choice to care about 4. Druids have the option care about Strength as well.
So expanding on the above idea further:
Trajectory Calculation You are capable of using your understanding of physics and environmental factors to make up for any lack of grace when you lob an explosive. You can add your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with bombs. I think every alchemist would get this, not just bombers?
And then a Mutagenist Research Field thing:
Analytical Reflexes Drinking countless mutagens and risky experiments have permanently altered your metabolism, rewiring your nervous system to allow your brain quicker responses to danger. When under the effects of a mutagen, you can use your Intelligence modifier instead of Dexterity modifier to armor class. Any Dexterity Cap from armor still applies. You can also use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for any attack with an unarmed strike or finesse weapon.
I dunno how balanced the idea is yet, and I know PF2 is trying to do less stat substitution... But it does help with the class's MAD problems and I loooove the flavor of it.
Honestly... That's a very huge and resounding nope. Both are math enhancers much like PF11e and worse, they are must-have which is a huge issue. But both feats have an interesting concept but I think they would be "better" (as in more suited to PF2e) if they were like this:
Trajectory Calculation Your understanding of the inner works of the world allows you to make quick calculations that can leverage environment, creatures and surfaces to alter the path of your bombs. You can use a creature to alter your bomb's throwing direction or use a surface or creature between you and the target to increase the range increment to up to 10ft.
Basically, you can "kick" your bombs off things to bend around covers or use objects and characters to gain more range to your throws while also ignoring soft cover.
Analytical Reflexes When under the effects of a...
To clarify, these were theoretical features, not feats, so I don't see a problem with them being must have. Everyone would have them. Well, everyone would have Int to bomb hit, and all Mutagenists would have the reflexes one. That was my initial very unpolished idea.
...So expanding on the above idea further:
Trajectory Calculation You are capable of using your understanding of physics and environmental factors to make up for any lack of grace when you lob an explosive. You can add your Intelligence modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier on attack rolls with bombs. I think every alchemist would get this, not just bombers?
And then a Mutagenist Research Field thing:
Analytical Reflexes Drinking countless mutagens and risky experiments have permanently altered your metabolism, rewiring your nervous system to allow your brain quicker responses to danger. When under the effects of a mutagen, you can use your Intelligence modifier instead of Dexterity modifier to armor class. Any Dexterity Cap from armor still applies. You can also use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for any attack with an unarmed strike or finesse weapon.
I dunno how balanced the idea is yet, and I know PF2 is trying to do less stat substitution... But it does help with the class's MAD problems and I loooove the flavor of it.
Honestly... That's a very huge and resounding nope. Both are math enhancers much like PF11e and worse, they are must-have which is a huge issue. But both feats have an interesting concept but I think they would be "better" (as in more suited to PF2e) if they were like this:
Trajectory Calculation Your understanding of the inner works of the world allows you to make quick calculations that can leverage environment, creatures and surfaces to alter the path of your bombs. You can use a creature to alter your bomb's throwing direction or use a surface or creature between you and the target to increase the range increment to up to 10ft.
Basically, you can "kick" your bombs off things to bend around covers or use objects and characters to gain more range to your throws while also ignoring soft cover.
Analytical Reflexes
Sorry, for some reason I thought it was an idea for feats, but I still don't think that Paizo would just straight up replace stats. The issue has been popped up a few times it seems like they want to get away from status substitution as much as possible, which is why I think that they will either come up (if they come up) with something that compensates but it is not a direct substitution. It became an issue in PF1e, I think they want to avoid it as much as possible.
The problem with adding master weapon proficiency to the alchemist is twofold
1) Quicksilver Mutagens, which they can give to themselves and have on for every combat starting at 11th level, will push them to effectively one above master proficiency.
2) Sticky Bomb is already a competitive option with martial damage, giving them that +2 actually pushes it way over martial damage (that critical persistent is absolutely brutal).
1) That's the entire point of a limited buff. You spend your action economy to grant you an upgrade on what you have. What's the big deal of having a mutagenist being +1 above? I thought that was the entire point of you buffing yourself. Just because right now the Alchemist is just having to pay to stay in the game doesn't mean it is a good state for the class to be in. Let it go above the curve, there's already plenty of stuff that does that (Spells, Inspire Courage, etc). The Alchemist's buff would be just like any other.
2) I don't see why that would be the case. I've seen plenty of persistent damage in action, and having +4~6 (assuming INT maxed) damage every round is NEAT at best, specially now it triggers of resistance (0 damage) and weaknesses (best case scenario). It will never come close to a Barbarian swinging roughly for 2d12+14 for dragon (16 giant, 13 spirit, 11 Animal, 12 Fury) every hit, disregarding occasional critical hits (splash doesn't double, for some reason) and other fancy abilities that every other class have access because unlike the Alchemist, they have actual options. I'll not mention fighters, because along with the Rogue, they're Paizo's babies and get all the candy in the world.
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1) That's the entire point of a limited buff. You spend your action economy to grant you an upgrade on what you have. What's the big deal of having a mutagenist being +1 above? I thought that was the entire point of you buffing yourself. Just because right now the Alchemist is just having to pay to stay in the game doesn't mean it is a good state for the class to be in. Let it go above the curve, there's already plenty of stuff that does that (Spells, Inspire Courage, etc). The Alchemist's buff would be just like any other.
2) I don't see why that would be the case. I've seen plenty of persistent damage in action, and having +4~6 (assuming INT maxed) damage every round is NEAT at best, specially now it triggers of resistance (0 damage) and weaknesses (best case scenario). It will never come close to a Barbarian swinging roughly for 2d12+14 for dragon (16 giant, 13 spirit, 11 Animal, 12 Fury) every hit, disregarding occasional critical hits (splash doesn't double, for some reason) and other fancy abilities that every other class have access because unlike the Alchemist, they have actual options. I'll not mention fighters, because along with the Rogue, they're Paizo's babies and get all the candy in the world.
Except at 11th level you're spending 0 actions and very few resources to have that +1 on all day. Mutagen scaling is weird, they cost actions and a lot of resources when resources at tight (low levels because you have to make more of them to account for the lower duration) and no actions + barely any resources when resources are plentiful (because they last 1 hour). And that permanent +1 kicks in... a couple of levels before master proficiency does. Maybe it's deliberate?
When you're talking about a +3 total buff over their base hit chance, you're no longer talking about +4-6 damage. More like +7-10 damage (because of sticky bomb) with the potential to be +14-20 damage every round. The Barbarian is only, at that point, doing 3d12+11 (3d12 greater striking, 8 dragon, 3 weapon spec at level 13 - at level 15 this increases to 3d12+20) with dragon per attack, and is likely only getting 80% of that (65% hit chance) on their first strike.
So you're looking at an Alchemist being able to do 90% of (let's say acid) 3d6+8 persistent, 8 splash and 1 acid for 2 actions at range vs the Barbarian doing at max 125% of 3d12+20 in melee only for 2 actions.
A fairer example would be comparing the Alchemist to a martial's ranged damage, at which point you'd see that level of buff it's probably a bit too much.
Does quicksilver mutagen's item bonus stack with the inherent item bonus of higher level alchemical bombs?
Except at 11th level you're spending 0 actions and very few resources to have that +1 on all day. Mutagen scaling is weird, they cost actions and a lot of resources when resources at tight (low levels because you have to make more of them to account for the lower duration) and no actions + barely any resources when resources are plentiful (because they last 1 hour). And that permanent +1 kicks in... a couple of levels before master proficiency does. Maybe it's deliberate?
When you're talking about a +3 total buff over their base hit chance, you're no longer talking about +4-6 damage. More like +7-10 damage (because of sticky bomb) with the potential to be +14-20 damage every round. The Barbarian is only, at that point, doing 3d12+11 (3d12 greater striking, 8...
Don't forget that the bonus from Quicksilver is an item bonus, meaning it doesn't stack with potency runes, the inherent bonus bombs give, or Alchemist's Goggles. The Alchemist already has plenty of ways to get that permanent +1.
EDIT: Ninja'd by 7 minutes, I should really refresh the page more.
Except at 11th level you're spending 0 actions and very few resources to have that +1 on all day. Mutagen scaling is weird, they cost actions and a lot of resources when resources at tight (low levels because you have to make more of them to account for the lower duration) and no actions + barely any resources when resources are plentiful (because they last 1 hour). And that permanent +1 kicks in... a couple of levels before master proficiency does. Maybe it's deliberate?When you're talking about a +3 total buff over their base hit chance, you're no longer talking about +4-6 damage. More like +7-10 damage (because of sticky bomb) with the potential to be +14-20 damage every round. The Barbarian is only, at that point, doing 3d12+11 (3d12 greater striking, 8...
As the others mentioned above, Item bonuses. Also, don't forget to add Strength (Unless you wanted to account for class features only, for some reason). The things I'm saying is by seeing a Bomber Alchemist in action for a while now and one that focus a lot on combat prowess.
I don't think that having a +1 above base line would be unreasonable. Even if it requires a way for the character to spend an action while in battle, for example: The duration is 1 hour, but it is dormant in your body until you spend a concentrate action to awaken it and give you the benefits.
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Here are my House Rules...at the moment primarily consisting of Alchemist fixes. I particularly like my Chirugeon fix, which I think is interesting and powerful in its own way.
That bit in particular is inspired by my experience with having a PF1 Witch with the Vellemancer as the primary healer in one PC group. Which created some very unique effects that I think duplicating could be cool.
I also started a thread if people want to discuss my House Rules specifically.
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As the others mentioned above, Item bonuses. Also, don't forget to add Strength (Unless you wanted to account for class features only, for some reason). The things I'm saying is by seeing a Bomber Alchemist in action for a while now and one that focus a lot on combat prowess.
I don't think that having a +1 above base line would be unreasonable. Even if it requires a way for the character to spend an action while in battle, for example: The duration is 1 hour, but it is dormant in your body until you spend a concentrate action to awaken it and give you the benefits.
That's assuming Master Proficiency at level 15 and just the extra +1 over regular from Quicksilver.
Barbarian has a +28 to-hit at that level (+15 level, +6 master, +2 item, +5 strength) against moderate AC 36 for a 50% chance to succeed and 15% chance to critically succeed, dealing 80% of weapon damage (on average) on the first attack, and 45% of weapon damage (35% success + 5% critical success) on the second attack, totaling 125% of weapon damage for 2 actions.
I did forget about Strength, so their damage per strike is 3d12+25 averaging 44.5 per strike or 55.625 damage per 2 actions.
Our Alchemist would have a +29 (+15 level, +6 master, +3 item, +5 dex) to hit at that level, for a 50% chance to succeed and a 20% chance to critically succeed, dealing 90% of weapon damage. He would also have a 25% chance to fail (relevant for splash).
He would deal 3d6+8 persistent+8 splash+1 acid. Assuming persistent lasts the average duration of 10/3 rounds, you're talking about .9(10/3(19.5)+8+1) - 0.2(8) (as splash can't crit) + 0.25(8) (splash damage on a miss) for a total of 74.4 average damage.
Now sure, you can argue that this costs the alchemist some resources (1/20 of their resources for the day and they can reduce the damage slightly in order to make it free, though they shouldn't perpetual acid) and they can't do it every round as persistent of the same type doesn't stack (but they can switch bombs) but there's also the fact to consider that the alchemist can do this from up to 120 feet away whereas the Barbarian has to be in melee.
That's insane.
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I did forget about Strength, so their damage per strike is 3d12+25 averaging 44.5 per strike or 55.625 damage per 2 actions.
Uh...my calculations say that, at 15th level, that damage should be 3d12+27, likely +2d6 from things like Flaming. That's 53.5 damage per successful attack and 66.875 damage.
He would deal 3d6+8 persistent+8 splash+1 acid. Assuming persistent lasts the average duration of 10/3 rounds, you're talking about .9(10/3(19.5)+8+1) - 0.2(8) (as splash can't crit) + 0.25(8) (splash damage on a miss) for a total of 74.4 average damage.
Sure, and actually they get +3 more than that from Weapon Specialization (so +2.7 DPR) but only 29.6 of that (or so) is within a round (though a second attack certainly ups that damage). 8 ongoing damage is great, but it will take several turns to equal out to as much damage as the Barbarian gets...and the enemy will often die before that happens. The Barbarian can also get flanking pretty readily, increasing etheir damage significantly and something the Alchemist has issues with (well, they could use Bottled Lightning, but that decreases their Persistent damage, at least potentially).
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Uh...my calculations say that, at 15th level, that damage should be 3d12+27, likely +2d6 from things like Flaming. That's 53.5 damage per successful attack and 66.875 damage.
My bad, I calc’d dragon as +14 instead of +16 for some reason. Should even out with the missing weapon spec from the alchemist though.
Sure, and actually they get +3 more than that from Weapon Specialization (so +2.7 DPR) but only 29.6 of that (or so) is within a round (though a second attack certainly ups that damage). 8 ongoing damage is great, but it will take several turns to equal out to as much damage as the Barbarian gets...and the enemy will often die before that happens. The Barbarian can also get flanking pretty readily, increasing etheir damage significantly and something the Alchemist has issues with (well, they could use Bottled Lightning, but that decreases their Persistent damage, at least potentially).
The alchemist somewhat just as easily get flanking as the barbarian (the barbarian can move slightly faster with the right feat and has things like sudden charge, but theoretically nothing is stopping the alchemist striding next to the enemy aside from the fact that it’s probably a bad idea).
And yes, the damage for the alchemist is over time rather than instantly, although we should really be comparing to a ranger or fighter’s bow damage as the alchemist can do this from 120ft away.
The alchemist has versatility that the barbarian doesn’t have as well. They’re able to buff the party with poisons (at effectively no action cost), have elixirs for defense and non combat and are able to inflict a variety of conditions with the Debilitating Bomb line. All of that a martial can’t effectively compete with (martials can inflict some conditions but not as good). What is the alchemist really losing in return?
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All these changes seem like they make the alchemist too effective in combat. Making charts to show how alchemists would fair with the proposed changes (and compared to other classes and how they were previously) would be really helpful.
All these changes seem like they make the alchemist too effective in combat. Making charts to show how alchemists would fair with the proposed changes (and compared to other classes and how they were previously) would be really helpful.
The interaction with Master Proficiency and the Buff to Mutagenist stands out most for me. If i’m reading it correctly that means the Mutagenist will get +2 - +5 item bonus from Mutagens, while everyone else gets the standard +1 - +4 item bonus.
By level 11 a Mutagenist with the ‘Feral Mutagen’ feat can be getting a +4 Item bonus to hit netting +1 to hit above an optimized Barbarian. With d12 Jaws, and d10 agile claws; all of which also have the Deadly d10 trait, seems to make Mutagenist Alchemist a better Feral Martial than a Animal Totem Barbarian.
This wouldn’t be that bad if Barbarian could out scale the Alchemist at level 13 with Master Proficiency, but if the Alchemist gets Master Proficiency as well then this just stays the same.
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All these changes seem like they make the alchemist too effective in combat. Making charts to show how alchemists would fair with the proposed changes (and compared to other classes and how they were previously) would be really helpful.
Aside from levels 5 and 6, only level 13+ bombers actually improve their DPR via these rules. All it does is give them +2 to hit at those specific levels. But let's look at 15th level, as suggested previously.
My previous Barbarian analysis at level 15 stands at 66.875 damage with two attacks (we may assume the third action was used to Rage or move). Let's do a full one on the Alchemist, assuming two attacks (the first preceded by a Quick Alchemy usage).
The first is a Sticky Bomb, and acid, as suggested by Exocist, above. That's 9 actual damage (I actually got this slightly wrong above) + 5 damage on a miss + 3d6+5 Persistent so a total of 9.35 plus 35.805 from the Persistent damage over time. That's 45.155 (assuming the enemy lasts three rounds). The second will be a fire bomb. That's an attack at +24 for a 40% hit chance and 5% crit chance for 3d8+8 + 3 Persistent, making for a total DPR of 10 plus 4.995 totaling 14.995. So together those are 60.15 or thereabouts...but that number's misleading.
I mean, that's good damage, but a good half (almost 30 points, on average) of it takes place over three subsequent turns rather than immediately, it requires a full turn, specific resource usages (specifically, it requires Quick Alchemy which is hardly unlimited), and most importantly can't be duplicated on the same foe, since Persistent damage of the same type doesn't stack. It's also still lower than dedicated melee combatants.
Subsequent turns using, for simplicity, more alchemist's fire, do more like 40.75 (realistically, this improves the 5 from persistent fire to a for sure 15 or so, since one attack will hit, but that's again a one time boost). They can maybe increase that a little with Bottled Lighting but the math gets complicated and conditional.
Comparatively, a Fighter Archer would have +30 to hit base and do 3d8+2+2d6 damage for a DPR of 48.375 using Triple Shot and a fourth attack. Over three rounds, that's about on par DPR with the Alchemist and with no resource expenditure beyond arrows while the Alchemist has expended one Quick Alchemy and 7 prepared bombs. If the fighter chugged a Quicksilver Mutagen, I think their DPR winds up higher.
Now, if the Alchemist moves on to a new foe every turn (or one they missed with the Sticky Bomb) they can manage the higher DPR more often, but spreading attacks like that is usually not best practice, and it increases the resource expenditure significantly (since Quick Alchemy is resources intensive on both actions and reagents).
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The interaction with Master Proficiency and the Buff to Mutagenist stands out most for me. If i’m reading it correctly that means the Mutagenist will get +2 - +5 item bonus from Mutagens, while everyone else gets the standard +1 - +4 item bonus.
That seems correct, yes.
By level 11 a Mutagenist with the ‘Feral Mutagen’ feat can be getting a +4 Item bonus to hit netting +1 to hit above an optimized Barbarian. With d12 Jaws, and d10 agile claws; all of which also have the Deadly d10 trait, seems to make Mutagenist Alchemist a better Feral Martial than a Animal Totem Barbarian.
This is a potential issue only in combination with Int to attacks (which I'm not a fan of to be honest). Without that, the Barbarian's greater Str makes them even, while their huge damage bonus from Rage more than makes up for the Deadly.
Their HP is also much, much, better of course.
This wouldn’t be that bad if Barbarian could out scale the Alchemist at level 13 with Master Proficiency, but if the Alchemist gets Master Proficiency as well then this just stays the same.
Yeah, adding Int to attacks pushes this over the top for me, and I'm skeptical of it.
To be fair, I wasn't sold on Int to attack either, though I do like it in theory. But I will point out that an Alchemist with normal martial progression and an additional item bonus still hits less often than a fighter, and for less damage than a barbarian or rogue. In fact, they are arguably still better off giving bombs to a Ranger than using them personally, though with the increased reagent mileage there should be bombs enough for everyone.
Also, remember that persistent damage has a 25% chance to end any given turn, even without action expenditure.
To be fair, I wasn't sold on Int to attack either, though I do like it in theory. But I will point out that an Alchemist with normal martial progression and an additional item bonus still hits less often than a fighter, and for less damage than a barbarian or rogue. In fact, they are arguably still better off giving bombs to a Ranger than using them personally, though with the increased reagent mileage there should be bombs enough for everyone.
Also, remember that persistent damage has a 25% chance to end any given turn, even without action expenditure.
I agree, Int to attack should stay the domain of the Investigator. And it's important to note the sorts of attacks such a character would be making. With only having Master proficiency with unarmed attacks and simple weapons, they simply don't have access to more powerful armaments with better trait spreads. Their claw only has agile and their jaw has no traits.
Barbarians and Monks both gain innately better attacks just through their weapon traits. That and combat feats that grant them even more powerful attacks or different options that a mutagenist simply won't have.
The interaction with Master Proficiency and the Buff to Mutagenist stands out most for me. If i’m reading it correctly that means the Mutagenist will get +2 - +5 item bonus from Mutagens, while everyone else gets the standard +1 - +4 item bonus.That seems correct, yes.
By level 11 a Mutagenist with the ‘Feral Mutagen’ feat can be getting a +4 Item bonus to hit netting +1 to hit above an optimized Barbarian. With d12 Jaws, and d10 agile claws; all of which also have the Deadly d10 trait, seems to make Mutagenist Alchemist a better Feral Martial than a Animal Totem Barbarian.This is a potential issue only in combination with Int to attacks (which I'm not a fan of to be honest). Without that, the Barbarian's greater Str makes them even, while their huge damage bonus from Rage more than makes up for the Deadly.
Their HP is also much, much, better of course.
This wouldn’t be that bad if Barbarian could out scale the Alchemist at level 13 with Master Proficiency, but if the Alchemist gets Master Proficiency as well then this just stays the same.Yeah, adding Int to attacks pushes this over the top for me, and I'm skeptical of it.
I’ll be fair and say i haven’t had time to read through all of it yet. The Int to attack i didn’t know about. Even so, i believe an optimized Mutagenist is only 2 points behind optimized martials because of their Key Stat. Giving them Master Proficiency closes this gap, and the +1 proposed for the Research Field creates a new gap in the Alchemist’s favor. Animal Barbarians don’t get Agile d8 attacks, let alone agile d10’s. As a side note, Monk is able to get Agile d8’s, but not Agile d10’s.
It is possible that the scaling Rage Damage equals things out more than i’m realizing at the moment, but there’s no question that Alchemist is going to be hitting criticals more often than the Barbarian.
For HP it’s possible that the Juggernaut Mutagen at that level can make up for the difference, but i need to make sure.
Barbarian can still be unique enough with its feat choices, so how much of an issue it might actually be could be more speculative than definitive.
On a positive note; i do like the idea of folding a small amount of feats into the Bomber Field. Weather they end up being considered essential or not it allows most Players to have more floating feats like Fighter does, but specific to the Field.
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Barbarians and Monks both gain innately better attacks just through their weapon traits. That and combat feats that grant them even more powerful attacks or different options that a mutagenist simply won't have.
People always forget that in this edition accuracy and damage aren't the only things that makes a martial character. A mutagenist will have lower level feats only through multiclass and probably at the cost of important feats for an alchemist.
While it is very good (and strong) for a mutagenist to have +1 over other master proficiency characters lets not for get that it is not the class' main stat (I'm only considering that a change in proficiency will be enough to keep heavy changes to the class at a minimum) and that it will not have the feats that makes their action economy more effective or have special abilities. A Mutagenist will not even have an Attack of Opportunity without significant investment!
There shouldn't be a world where Fighters and Rogues are measured very differently from other classes and they are deemed fine. I say that an Alchemist could get every benefit it could get.
I honestly thought the Alchemist would be one of the most insane classes, because it was the new class in the Core, with a new iconic and it was one of the aspects of Pathfinder with less ties to D&D (I don't know if the Class was designed for TTRPGs by Paizo).
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All these changes seem like they make the alchemist too effective in combat. Making charts to show how alchemists would fair with the proposed changes (and compared to other classes and how they were previously) would be really helpful.Aside from levels 5 and 6, only level 13+ bombers actually improve their DPR via these rules. All it does is give them +2 to hit at those specific levels. But let's look at 15th level, as suggested previously.
My previous Barbarian analysis at level 15 stands at 66.875 damage with two attacks (we may assume the third action was used to Rage or move). Let's do a full one on the Alchemist, assuming two attacks (the first preceded by a Quick Alchemy usage).
The first is a Sticky Bomb, and acid, as suggested by Exocist, above. That's 9 actual damage (I actually got this slightly wrong above) + 5 damage on a miss + 3d6+5 Persistent so a total of 9.35 plus 35.805 from the Persistent damage over time. That's 45.155 (assuming the enemy lasts three rounds). The second will be a fire bomb. That's an attack at +24 for a 40% hit chance and 5% crit chance for 3d8+8 + 3 Persistent, making for a total DPR of 10 plus 4.995 totaling 14.995. So together those are 60.15 or thereabouts...but that number's misleading.
I mean, that's good damage, but a good half (almost 30 points, on average) of it takes place over three subsequent turns rather than immediately, it requires a full turn, specific resource usages (specifically, it requires Quick Alchemy which is hardly unlimited), and most importantly can't be duplicated on the same foe, since Persistent damage of the same type doesn't stack. It's also still lower than dedicated melee combatants.
Subsequent turns using, for simplicity, more alchemist's fire, do more like 40.75 (realistically, this improves the 5 from persistent fire to a for sure 15 or so, since one attack will hit, but that's again a one time boost). They can maybe increase that a little with Bottled Lighting but the math gets complicated...
Let's assume the alchemist gets a little more complicated, takes perpetuals on Lightning & Fire and decides they want to do 0 resource expenditure.
On round 1, they use Quick Alchemy (w/ Double Brew), creating a Sticky Fire + Debilitating Lightning, on round 2 they will do Sticky Lightning + Debilitating Fire and attacking. For this purpose, we will assume persistent damage lasts 2 rounds instead of the average 3.33. We will also assume they prebuff with Quicksilver because it lasts 1 hour, so you can feasibly have quicksilver up all day if you want to. We will also add in an allowance for a bow flurry ranger using Hunt Prey->Hunted Shot->Strike
The Bomber, at this point has a 70% hit chance against the Barbarian's 65% (math noted elsewhere).
Fire damage = 2d8+7 splash+2 persistent (9 with sticky)
Lightning damage = 2d6+7 splash(+7 persistent with sticky)
Barbarian damage = 3d12+27+2d6(5 strength, 16 dragon, 6 weapon spec, 2d6 runes) = 53.5
Ranger damage = 3d8+8(6 weapon spec, 2 strength from propulsive)+2d6+2d10 on crit totalling 28.5 damage + 11 on crit
Barbarian actions = 0.65(53.5)+0.15(53.5)+0.4(53.5)+0.05(53.5)+0.15(53.5)+0.05(53.5)=1.45(53.5) = 77.575 damage
Ranger actions = 0.65(28.5)+0.15(28.5)+0.15(11)+0.5(28.5)+0.05(11)+0.35(28.5)+0.05(11) = 1.75(28.5)+0.25(11) = 52.625
Alchemist actions (round 1) = 0.7(16+2*9)+0.2(9+2*9)+0.25(7)+0.45(14)+0.05(7)+0.45(7) = 40.75
Alchemist actions (round 2) = 0.7(14+2*7)+0.2(7+2*7)+0.25(7)+0.7(0.55(16)+0.05(9)+0.4(7))+0.3(0.45(16)+0. 05(9)+0.3(7)) = 37.12
Now if the alchemist wants to add some resources to use on level acid and fire
=0.7(2*19.5+9)+0.2(2*19.5+1)+0.25(8)+0.45(13.5+8+2*3)+0.05(13.5+2*3)+0.45(8 ) = 60.55 damage
I still don't like this. Persistent damage may not last more than 2 rounds in normal combat, but it definitely will in boss combats and at that point it becomes a case of the Alchemist spending some of their resources to outdo martials when it matters , which is the most memorable times in the campaign.
Honestly, I think Alchemists are martials, they just didn't get the standard chassis. They have next to zero in-combat options besides what alchemical items provide, which is minimal compared to the class feat options other classes can collect.
I see no problem with a bomb focused bomber spending resources to compete with other classes.
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Honestly, I think Alchemists are martials, they just didn't get the standard chassis. They have next to zero in-combat options besides what alchemical items provide, which is minimal compared to the class feat options other classes can collect.
I see no problem with a bomb focused bomber spending resources to compete with other classes.
The reason I put them in the caster bucket is because of the sheer amount of things alchemical items provide.
- Poisons provide a variety of debuffs or can buff weapons for extra damage
- Elixirs and Mutagens both provide long-lasting buffs (elixirs on a combat basis, mutagens eventually on a daily basis)
- Bombs provide damage
That puts them in the caster bucket because they're essentially spending resources to do one of three distinct things, and they have many different options within those distinct categories.
A martial is much more limited in what they can accomplish, even with class feats they can't provide debuffs or buffs as potent as the alchemist.
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Casters can do a lot more than three things.
Really, a martial class with a debuff Focus Spell (or three), a healing Focus spell (like Lay on Hands) and a buff-based Focus spell (ala Heroism) is a better comparison than a caster.
Bombs are solid, but not really different from other weapons in most ways in terms of what they do.
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Casters can do a lot more than three things.
Really, a martial class with a debuff Focus Spell (or three), a healing Focus spell (like Lay on Hands) and a buff-based Focus spell (ala Heroism) is a better comparison than a caster.
Bombs are solid, but not really different from other weapons in most ways in terms of what they do.
Casters can do 6 things
- Heal- Blast
- Debuff
- Buff
- Battlefield control such as summons & walls
- A small amount of miscellaneous stuff that probably technically fits in other categories
The problem is that no list does all 6 of these things. Arcane can't heal. Primal can't Debuff or Buff that well. Divine can't blast or debuff that well. Occult can't blast or control that well.
Alchemists can
- Heal
- Blast
- Debuff
- Buff
- Some miscellaneous bonuses with elixirs
Bombs might not be the best blasting tools - they don't affect a large area until you get Mega Bomb (at 20th) - but with additive the damage is comparable with if not better than a caster's single target damage using their spell slots.
It's an apt comparison IMO.
A martial class can do all of those things as well if they either multiclass into a caster or are a partial caster themselves. A barbarian or fighter certainly isn't healing or debuffing without multiclass.
Rangers need to go down Snares to do so
Champions start with Lay on Hands so far, but need to go into Domain Initiate to unlock one option to do something else that isn't part of their reaction.
Rogues need to go into better debilitations.
Monks need to go into Ki.
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Uh...casters can do a whole lot more than that, .
Casters can do all of the following:
-HP Healing
-Condition Removal
-Debuff
-Buff
-Damage
-Battlefield Control
-Summoning (I'd say this is its own category)
-Movement Effects
-Utility (solving mundane problems, like getting food or ignoring temperatures)
Martials can also do quite a bit, and can generally do the following:
-HP Healing
-Debuff (not as well as casters)
-Damage
-Movement Effects (not nearly as well as casters)
-Utility (Not as well as casters)
Of those two lists of options, Alchemists are much closer to the Martial list. They're better at debuffs and can add buffing, but their utility and mobility options are more on par with Martials, and their Battlefield Control and Condition Removal verge on nonexistent, while their Summoning is completely nonexistent.
And the caster list is mostly true of all casters except for HP healing (which they can do the same way martials can even then). Even condition removal is universal to some degree in the form of Dispel Magic.