I thought it was just one at first, however the book says it takes multiple (usually) but doesn't say how many.
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I don't think that's really a question of "must commit X number of violating acts" so much as a judgement call that includes the severity of those acts.
I thought it was just one at first, however the book says it takes multiple (usually) but doesn't say how many.
Pick a number from 1 to infinity and that might be the right number for that dm...
Honestly this is 100% in the hand of the GM but can vary very heavily from deity to deity. For Cayden being violent while drunk will likely be forgiven just for the night spent in a cell and the headache and bruises the next day. However selling someone into slavery or working with slavers would probably result in excommunication or at the very least require atonement and working to undo what you have done.
I don't have a list of them in front of me but I am sure a lot of things could be forgiven or be given minor punishment. Maybe a Cleric or Paladin of Shelyn in a jealous fit damages a rival artists work. Maybe they don't get thrown out for that but they can feel the ire of Shelyn like a hot gaze on the back of their neck and their divine powers don't work for a day or so while they try to help the rival repair their work or remake it into something greater.
Honestly this is 100% in the hand of the GM but can vary very heavily from deity to deity. For Cayden being violent while drunk will likely be forgiven just for the night spent in a cell and the headache and bruises the next day. However selling someone into slavery or working with slavers would probably result in excommunication or at the very least require atonement and working to undo what you have done.
I don't have a list of them in front of me but I am sure a lot of things could be forgiven or be given minor punishment. Maybe a Cleric or Paladin of Shelyn in a jealous fit damages a rival artists work. Maybe they don't get thrown out for that but they can feel the ire of Shelyn like a hot gaze on the back of their neck and their divine powers don't work for a day or so while they try to help the rival repair their work or remake it into something greater.
Sounds reasonable. Though, I'd say in Shelyn's case if someone, say, burns down a beautiful cathedral or the like (even if it's unoccupied at the time) that would be bad enough to permanently lose spellcasting.
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Sounds reasonable. Though, I'd say in Shelyn's case if someone, say, burns down a beautiful cathedral or the like (even if it's unoccupied at the time) that would be bad enough to permanently lose spellcasting.Honestly this is 100% in the hand of the GM but can vary very heavily from deity to deity. For Cayden being violent while drunk will likely be forgiven just for the night spent in a cell and the headache and bruises the next day. However selling someone into slavery or working with slavers would probably result in excommunication or at the very least require atonement and working to undo what you have done.
I don't have a list of them in front of me but I am sure a lot of things could be forgiven or be given minor punishment. Maybe a Cleric or Paladin of Shelyn in a jealous fit damages a rival artists work. Maybe they don't get thrown out for that but they can feel the ire of Shelyn like a hot gaze on the back of their neck and their divine powers don't work for a day or so while they try to help the rival repair their work or remake it into something greater.
For sure there is a difference of scale to what I suggested there. I was more assuming a landscape painting a sketch or a clay figurine something that is only causing the other person a loss of effort and has little lasting consequences.
Now if the rival work were something sentimental and irreplaceable like a portrait painting of their deceased mother that I would make have permanent spell loss. However I could also build an awesome atonement quest around that where they have to find a powerful wizard who can planesift them to nirvana so they can find their rivals mother in their new form and repaint them and ask them to visit their child on the material plane to help them forgive you. Which would be awesome since Shelyn believes no one is beyond redemption and thus with enough time and proper deeds may give you power back and even if not giving you power back asking Pharasma to send you to her realm in Nirvana to be among her servents when your time comes.
This is becoming a tangent but you can see it is clearly on a case by case basis and with the fact that 2E was built to give power back to GMs it seems the mechanic is vague by design. So as a lot of questions about 2E seem to be answered by, 'ask your gm' and if it is a case of you want this info for future society play, if you think it will be an issue put the idea on the shelf until you can use it at a home game(I got this answer from James Jacobs in a recent stream when asking about something) and play something less worrisome(for yourself) for society.
Most Anathema lists have a mix between the petty minor stuff. and the "the GM is angry that your paladin is eating babies".
There is a difference between a cleric of Sarenrae telling a lie about taking the last cookie from the cookie jar.... as compared to turning the grandma that baked the cookies into a zombie. Somethings are bad enough that you get booted immediately.
I always used a sort of escalating strikes system, like each infraction last longer and longer. Behind the scenes of my games, I use the square of infraction times as time without your diety's favor.
First offense is one day without powers, second offense is four days, third is nine. If you can stay on the straight and narrow all that time even without your god's favor and attempt to make ammends for what you did, you can always eventually work your way back.
I never liked the idea of the atonement spell, always seemed insincere to me.
2d6+2.
Hmmm..... I think you're missing the square root of pi in there somewhere. or at least a d13.
2d6+2.
We always played it as |2d6+2-1d8|. If you roll a 0, your god just hates you.
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Most Anathema lists have a mix between the petty minor stuff. and the "the GM is angry that your paladin is eating babies".
Well, a lot of the core 20 actually... don't. You're kind of assuming that lying doesn't matter too much, but the anathema write-ups put it on equal footing without any real distinction.
But many of them are related ideas that seem equal, not 'lesser' and 'greater' anathema. Pharasma is pretty much: don't mess with the dead, Abadar's are: don't steal, don't mess with courts, Gorum wants every conflict resolved with a test of arms, Torag wants honesty and genocide, etc.
The real trick are the deities that can derail a campaign because of their anathema. Pharasma can be a problem if someone stuck their plot macguffin in a tomb, Gorum is just a constant problem if some of the party wants to talk, Cayden's followers can constantly go off on tangents if slavers wander by.
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Most Anathema lists have a mix between the petty minor stuff. and the "the GM is angry that your paladin is eating babies".
Well, a lot of the core 20 actually... don't. You're kind of assuming that lying doesn't matter too much, but the anathema write-ups put it on equal footing without any real distinction.
But many of them are related ideas that seem equal, not 'lesser' and 'greater' anathema. Pharasma is pretty much: don't mess with the dead, Abadar's are: don't steal, don't mess with courts, Gorum wants every conflict resolved with a test of arms, Torag wants honesty and genocide, etc.
The real trick are the deities that can derail a campaign because of their anathema. Pharasma can be a problem if someone stuck their plot macguffin in a tomb, Gorum is just a constant problem if some of the party wants to talk, Cayden's followers can constantly go off on tangents if slavers wander by.
In most of these cases I think you can easily say that an individual cleric or champion are not responsible for the actions of their comrades and any party member whose regular actions would get you excommunicated you wouldn't work with in the first place. If a cleric of Gorum tries to have a fight or physical challenge but the party bard talks the foe down that isn't a failure on the clerics fault, they attempted to do as their god commanded but other people's free will decided otherwise.
Most Anathema lists have a mix between the petty minor stuff. and the "the GM is angry that your paladin is eating babies".
Whoa, whoa, woooooah! No one said eatin' babies was gonna be a problem. I'm out.
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Most Anathema lists have a mix between the petty minor stuff. and the "the GM is angry that your paladin is eating babies".Whoa, whoa, woooooah! No one said eatin' babies was gonna be a problem. I'm out.
If I can't have my suckling pig, I picked the wrong religion... :P
Most Anathema lists have a mix between the petty minor stuff. and the "the GM is angry that your paladin is eating babies".Whoa, whoa, woooooah! No one said eatin' babies was gonna be a problem. I'm out.
Depends on the god. I think Torag would still be cool with it as long as they are the babies of "the enemies of your people".
Depends on the god. I think Torag would still be cool with it as long as they are the babies of "the enemies of your people".Nope. He's clearly okay with harming enemies, but babies aren't anyone's enemies.
What if it's an atropal?
Depends on the god. I think Torag would still be cool with it as long as they are the babies of "the enemies of your people".Nope. He's clearly okay with harming enemies, but babies aren't anyone's enemies.
I don't know... Chromatic dragons can be pretty hostile right out of the egg. ;)
Also, a south park quote: "Hat was attacked maliciously and unprovoked by a gang of babies in Westown Park. When that many babies get together, they can be like piranha." Skeeter
Let's look at this from a practical level.
Eating babies clearly breaks some rules. What about shooting Ray of Frost at a centipede swarm?
I am running Trail of the Hunted, first module of Irongfang Invasion, converted to PF2. The party is protecting and feeding a group of refugee villagers hiding in the forest. At 2nd level the druid picked up a cleric dedication for the Green Faith. He became subject to the anathema rules to not: "cause damage to natural settings, kill animals for reasons other than self-defense or sustenance, allow abuse of natural resources."
The party was checking out a half-collapsed farmhouse to shelter in for the night. A fellow party member was attacked by a centipede swarm. The party worked together to take down the swarm, including the druid shooting it with Ray of Frost.
Centipede swarms are animals. They are not edible. The swarm was not threatening the druid at the time, so technically attacking it was not self-defense. Did the druid break his Green Faith anathema?
I am not going to roleplay the Green Faith to the point where defending a friend counts as "kill animals for reasons other than self-defense or sustenance" and building a lean-to out of branches counts as "cause damage to natural settings." The refugees are hungry, so every edible animal they kill ends up in the stewpot. They are hiding from an enemy army, so they leave minimal signs of their presence, which also means minimal damage to natural settings. That is good enough for me. GMing is hard enough without nitpicking PC's behavior.
One trespass against anathema is enough to fall, because I don't count the marginal cases. I count only the serious cases, such as using animals for target practice, whether they die or not, or building an unprotected campfire that starts a grass fire (the druid once described gathering stones for the campfire, and this was at 1st-level before he had Green Faith rules).
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The party was checking out a half-collapsed farmhouse to shelter in for the night. A fellow party member was attacked by a centipede swarm. The party worked together to take down the swarm, including the druid shooting it with Ray of Frost.
Centipede swarms are animals. They are not edible. The swarm was not threatening the druid at the time, so technically attacking it was not self-defense. Did the druid break his Green Faith anathema?
1. Druids seem like they would have clearly understood exceptions when a member of your "pack" is under attack.
2. ....who says they aren't edible?However, once the head – and its pincers - is removed, a centipede makes a nutritious, tasty morsel
At some point most non undead, golem, elemental, or poisonous enemies can be seen as potential food.
2. ....who says they aren't edible?
However, once the head – and its pincers - is removed, a centipede makes a nutritious, tasty morsel
Just make sure they are cooked/prepared [deep fried, roasted, dried, powdered, boiled, pickled] and not raw: getting rat lungworms in your brain isn't any fun.
EDIT: also looking at the swarm list, scorpions, wasps, spiders, rats and bats are all edible. Fleas are eaten by snakes, ants, beetles, spiders, frogs and lizards so the druid might be 'hunting' for the wizards familiar. ;)
