Dumb rules question, I am probably just missing something obvious but I can't find a solution so here goes.
This is the situation I need to resolve:
My party and I are fighting an enemy who is standing away from any cover.
I have successfully used the hide action behind cover to make myself hidden.
I want to use the sneak action to move up to the enemy and strike them.
Now the RAW for the Sneak action states that when my movement is over, I instantly become spotted if I don't have cover or concealment from that enemy. So before I even attempt to attack, I'm observed and therefore they aren't flat footed to the attack.
Plus, I'm unaware of any rules that care about where an enemy is facing on the map. Therefore, there seems to be no mechanism to sneak up behind someone and give 'em the ol' stabbo. As soon as I end that action adjacent to them, I'm spotted no matter what I do.
It seems like sneaking behind people and stabbing them is pretty much the bread and butter of a rogue, but as per these rules I can only see it working if you're in dim light fighting something with regular vision. So surely I'm missing something here?
Yes, you missed this thread: Ambush!
tl;dr
If you are a rogue and you go first, YES!
If you end your movement in a square that threatens them and has any concealment/cover (wall, fog, bushes, darkness, corners), YES!
If you are invisible, they are blind, or other effects are inhibiting all their precise senses, YES!
If you have a feat or special ability (Spring from Shadows, very sneaky feat), YES!
If you are using a range weapon, YES!
If they are in the open, you have no special feats/abilities, nothing is impeding precise senses, and you end your movement without cover/concealment, No :(
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Yes, you missed this thread: Ambush!
tl;dr
If you are a rogue, you rolled stealth or deception for initiative and you go first, YES!
If you end your movement in a square that threatens them and has any concealment/cover (wall, fog, bushes, darkness, corners), YES!
If you are invisible, they are blind, or other effects are inhibiting all their precise senses, YES!
If you have a feat or special ability (Spring from Shadows, very sneaky feat), YES!
If you are using a range weapon, YES!
If they are in the open, you have no special feats/abilities, nothing is impeding precise senses, and you end your movement without cover/concealment, No :(
Fixed that. The rogue Surprise Attack feature only kicks in when you're doing something for initiative that involves attacking by surprise, not every time you go first.
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My own breakdown of the relevant rules can be found here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42yzg?Ambush#12
Basically, you can't melee attack while hidden without something that specifically allows it (Something that allows you to have cover/concealment while you are in melee range (magic or environmental condition usually), an ability that specifically allows your attack to resolve before you lose your stealth, or something that allows you to hide/sneak without cover).
Addendum: Rogues have been all about flanking positions for a couple of decades now (at least, until they get invisiblity somehow).
Well, I dont like it!
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Yes, you missed this thread: Ambush!
tl;dr
If you are a rogue and you go first, YES!
If you end your movement in a square that threatens them and has any concealment/cover (wall, fog, bushes, darkness, corners), YES!
If you are invisible, they are blind, or other effects are inhibiting all their precise senses, YES!
If you have a feat or special ability (Spring from Shadows, very sneaky feat), YES!
If you are using a range weapon, YES!
If they are in the open, you have no special feats/abilities, nothing is impeding precise senses, and you end your movement without cover/concealment, No :(
Ah, I see. Well I suppose it just means you have to be more creative with cover and use the other wealth of options for making people flat footed. Thanks for the response.
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Ah, I see. Well I suppose it just means you have to be more creative with cover and use the other wealth of options for making people flat footed. Thanks for the response.
Having natural cover in melee is going to be fairly rare (depending on your GM, of course):
When you’re behind an obstacle that could block weapons, guard you against explosions, and make you harder to detect, you’re behind cover. Standard cover gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to AC, to Reflex saves against area effects, and to Stealth checks to Hide, Sneak, or otherwise avoid detection. You can increase this to greater cover using the Take Cover basic action, increasing the circumstance bonus to +4. If cover is especially light, typically when it’s provided by a creature, you have lesser cover, which grants a +1 circumstance bonus to AC. A creature with standard cover or greater cover can attempt to use Stealth to Hide, but lesser cover isn’t sufficient.
Cover is relative, so you might simultaneously have cover against one creature and not another. Cover applies only if your path to the target is partially blocked. If a creature is entirely behind a wall or the like, you don’t have line of effect and typically can’t target it at all.
Usually, the GM can quickly decide whether your target has cover. If you’re uncertain or need to be more precise, draw a line from the center of your space to the center of the target’s space. If that line passes through any terrain or object that would block the effect, the target has standard cover (or greater cover if the obstruction is extreme or the target has Taken Cover). If the line passes through a creature instead, the target has lesser cover. When measuring cover against an area effect, draw the line from the effect’s point of origin to the center of the creature’s space.
Also, if you do somehow have cover, once you attack once you will need to Hide to become hidden again, which will limit you to one attack every other action. Also of note, your target will probably have cover from you as well, which will essentially negate the Flat-Footed AC penalty.
At low levels, physically flanking your foe is your best bet.
At level 6 or higher, Gang Up is highly recommended (assuming you have a couple more melee party members).
Anyone with a high degree of stealth training should be able to sneak up on someone and stab them in the back (provided they are not otherwise on alert).
(of the way I think it should be)
A fighter with legendary training in Stealth (but no other Stealth related abilities) encounters an ogre in the woods. The ogre is distracted; sitting on a fallen tree, his back to the fighter, carving a figurine out of his latest victim's corpse. The fighter sneaks up behind the ogre and skewers him with his lance, catching him flat-footed.
The same fighter later attempts to sneak in between a pair of alert guards protecting either side of a well-lit open gate. Short of using magic, near-magic abilities, or taking a different course of action, the fighter is sure to be caught.
Anyone with a high degree of stealth training should be able to sneak up on someone and stab them in the back (provided they are not otherwise on alert).
(of the way I think it should be)
A fighter with legendary training in Stealth (but no other Stealth related abilities) encounters an ogre in the woods. The ogre is distracted; sitting on a fallen tree, his back to the fighter, carving a figurine out of his latest victim's corpse. The fighter sneaks up behind the ogre and skewers him with his lance, catching him flat-footed.
The same fighter later attempts to sneak in between a pair of alert guards protecting either side of a well-lit open gate. Short of using magic, near-magic abilities, or taking a different course of action, the fighter is sure to be caught.
That works fine. The fallen tree provides cover.
@theOP, this is what Create a Diversion is for.
I don't think the scenario should change even if there was no tree.
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Anyone with a high degree of stealth training should be able to sneak up on someone and stab them in the back (provided they are not otherwise on alert).
(of the way I think it should be)
A fighter with legendary training in Stealth (but no other Stealth related abilities) encounters an ogre in the woods. The ogre is distracted; sitting on a fallen tree, his back to the fighter, carving a figurine out of his latest victim's corpse. The fighter sneaks up behind the ogre and skewers him with his lance, catching him flat-footed.
The same fighter later attempts to sneak in between a pair of alert guards protecting either side of a well-lit open gate. Short of using magic, near-magic abilities, or taking a different course of action, the fighter is sure to be caught.
Mechanically, the ogre being flat-footed means very little to the Fighter: It's just a -2 AC Penalty, which is nice but probably isn't going to swing the fight one way or the other. Rogues are the only ones who really need their opponents to be flat-footed, so they get a lot of tools to achieve this (if the rogue class had an anathema, it would be 'fighting fair').
You really seem to be digging your heels in on the "it seems like it should be this way" and not considering the "it is really an unnecessary complication for non-rogues so let's just skip it in this edition" side of things...
I'll also point out that the rules for the Sneak and Hide actions are really meant for encounter mode when people are already on alert and the idea of sneaking up behind someone falls apart without facing rules. It is not outrageous to allow someone to sneak behind someone when they are just Avoiding Notice.
That said, Surprise Attack is bundled as part of the already pretty darn good rogue dedication, so it isn't really a huge ask for a character to pick up if they already want legendary stealth.
Mechanically, the ogre being flat-footed means very little to the Fighter: It's just a -2 AC Penalty, which is nice but probably isn't going to swing the fight one way or the other.
To the ranger/champion/barbarian maybe, but a -2 AC is super useful to the fighter the same way it's useful to the rogue. The rogue gets sneak attack, but the fighter get's improved crit, and by a lot.
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I understand that at that hidden ends when you move. Spring from Shadows calls this out. But what about move and strike in a single action? Sudden Charge and Skirmish Strike both allow movement and striking in the same action. I wouldn't think it would be allowed for Sudden Charge because it spans multiple actions. But Skirmish Strike allows a step and a strike in one action. This seems reasonable, especially as it is only a step.
So I guess I'm asking if you loose the hidden condition only at the end of an action, or if it can end within an action. Basically, are actions atomic relative to stealth?
I understand that at that hidden ends when you move. Spring from Shadows calls this out. But what about move and strike in a single action? Sudden Charge and Skirmish Strike both allow movement and striking in the same action. I wouldn't think it would be allowed for Sudden Charge because it spans multiple actions. But Skirmish Strike allows a step and a strike in one action. This seems reasonable, especially as it is only a step.
So I guess I'm asking if you loose the hidden condition only at the end of an action, or if it can end within an action. Basically, are actions atomic relative to stealth?
I think you lose the hidden condition the moment you complete the move action (The action with the move trait). In the case of sudden charge you get to stride twice then strike, so it would end the moment a stride finishes (as you are no longer moving). Likewise for skirmish strike.
I think that if they had the move trait, like if sudden charge gained the move trait, then you would break stealth after you strike, as your move doesn't end until the action with the trait ends.
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I understand that at that hidden ends when you move. Spring from Shadows calls this out. But what about move and strike in a single action? Sudden Charge and Skirmish Strike both allow movement and striking in the same action. I wouldn't think it would be allowed for Sudden Charge because it spans multiple actions. But Skirmish Strike allows a step and a strike in one action. This seems reasonable, especially as it is only a step.
So I guess I'm asking if you loose the hidden condition only at the end of an action, or if it can end within an action. Basically, are actions atomic relative to stealth?
This posed an interesting question until I remembered that for the most part the discussion here centres around using the Sneak action to approach an opponent. Using a Stride action (or any other action which includes the Stride action as part of its body, such as Sudden Charge) would automatically cause you to drop stealth owing to the noise and commotion you make by choosing to run toward an opponent rather than Sneak.
(Mechanically, this is because the assumption above is that we are using either Hide or Sneak to become Hidden or Undetected, and those actions specify that if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, Seek, or Strike, you immediately become Observed before initiating your action (and in the case of Strike, you still become observed at the end). If you were Hidden by some other means, such as invisibility, you would likely remain so through any amount of charging, yelling, or striking)
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The relevant rule snippet is:I understand that at that hidden ends when you move. Spring from Shadows calls this out. But what about move and strike in a single action? Sudden Charge and Skirmish Strike both allow movement and striking in the same action. I wouldn't think it would be allowed for Sudden Charge because it spans multiple actions. But Skirmish Strike allows a step and a strike in one action. This seems reasonable, especially as it is only a step.
So I guess I'm asking if you loose the hidden condition only at the end of an action, or if it can end within an action. Basically, are actions atomic relative to stealth?
This posed an interesting question until I remembered that for the most part the discussion here centres around using the Sneak action to approach an opponent. Using a Stride action (or any other action which includes the Stride action as part of its body, such as Sudden Charge) would automatically cause you to drop stealth owing to the noise and commotion you make by choosing to run toward an opponent rather than Sneak.
(Mechanically, this is because the assumption above is that we are using either Hide or Sneak to become Hidden or Undetected, and those actions specify that if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, Seek, or Strike, you immediately become Observed before initiating your action (and in the case of Strike, you still become observed at the end). If you were Hidden by some other means, such as invisibility, you would likely remain so through any amount of charging, yelling, or striking)
You become observed as soon as you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step.
Remember that Sneak is a specific action that allows you to move up to half your speed, not something you slap on top of another action, so any 'move and attack' action will automatically make you observed (barring magic or specific exception).
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Actually, it depends on what die roll you need to hit in the first place:Mechanically, it's makes a difference for the fighter 1 in 5 times (20%). that's a pretty huge difference and almost always worth spending an action on if it's available. I don't disagree that it's essential to the rogue, but don't underestimate how important it is to other melee classes as well.Anyone with a high degree of stealth training should be able to sneak up on someone and stab them in the back (provided they are not otherwise on alert).
(of the way I think it should be)
A fighter with legendary training in Stealth (but no other Stealth related abilities) encounters an ogre in the woods. The ogre is distracted; sitting on a fallen tree, his back to the fighter, carving a figurine out of his latest victim's corpse. The fighter sneaks up behind the ogre and skewers him with his lance, catching him flat-footed.
The same fighter later attempts to sneak in between a pair of alert guards protecting either side of a well-lit open gate. Short of using magic, near-magic abilities, or taking a different course of action, the fighter is sure to be caught.
Mechanically, the ogre being flat-footed means very little to the Fighter: It's just a -2 AC Penalty, which is nice but probably isn't going to swing the fight one way or the other. Rogues are the only ones who really need their opponents to be flat-footed, so they get a lot of tools to achieve this (if the rogue class had an anathema, it would be 'fighting fair').
You really seem to be digging your heels in on the "it seems like it should be this way" and not considering the "it is really an unnecessary complication for non-rogues so let's just skip it in this edition" side of things...
- 23 or higher - +0%, as you still need a natural 20 to hit.
- 22 - +5%, as a natural 20 is now a Crit instead of a hit.
- 21 - +10% as a 19 now hits and a 20 crits.
- 20 to 12 - +10%, as two roll results that were misses are now hits but you still need a 20 to crit.
- 11 - +15% as a 19 is now a crit instead of a hit.
- 10 to 1 - +20% as two roll results that were hits are now crits and two roll results that were misses are now hits.
Rogues have the same gains (though their weapon proficiency is typically a step behind the fighter), but beyond that, 30%-50% of their base damage is dependent on their target being flat-footed (on my 8th level thief, damage is roughly 1/3rd damage dice (2d6), 1/3rd static bonus (+6), and 1/3rd Sneak Attack (+2d6)). So, while all martials like a flat-footed opponent, Rogues pretty much need them.
It is probably a houserule, but here is what I would do.
If the character uses the sneak action to move up to the target victim then they get a stealth roll to stay undetected long enough to use a strike or other attack as their next action (or pick pocket or such things). If they fail the stealth roll, they become detected immediately (before the strike, though they can still do the strike action anyway). If they do any other action, they become detected before that action as normal. They also become detected at the end of their movement (as normal) to everything except the target victim.
I've actually been wondering a lot about the hide and sneak section with "You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step."
This seems problematic. There are a -lot- of actions that fit this criteria. Based on this, hiding, sneaking out of combat around a corner and drinking a healing potion would automatically tell everyone in the fight where you are . Pickpocketing a guard's keys while invisible? Also immediately no longer undetected. Reloading a crossbow while hidden? Detected.
There's a GM may allow clause, which is good, but without that even having Subtle Theft doesn't let you sneak up on someone and steal their pouch without them knowing you're there, since Create a Diversion isn't a a Hide, Sneak or Step, so you would become hidden.
I'm also really not sure how this interacts with the avoiding notice exploration activity, the unnoticed condition, and does casting a spell with Conceal Spell/Silent Spell while hidden work, or does that automatically make you observed since its not a Hide, Sneak or Step? How does being invisible/silenced/negate aroma change anything, if it does?
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This seems problematic. There are a -lot- of actions that fit this criteria. Based on this, hiding, sneaking out of combat around a corner and drinking a healing potion would automatically tell everyone in the fight where you are . Pickpocketing a guard's keys while invisible? Also immediately no longer undetected. Reloading a crossbow while hidden? Detected.
There's a GM may allow clause, which is good, but without that even having Subtle Theft doesn't let you sneak up on someone and steal their pouch without them knowing you're there, since Create a Diversion isn't a a Hide, Sneak or Step, so you would become hidden.
I'm also really not sure how this interacts with the avoiding notice exploration activity, the unnoticed condition, and does casting a spell with Conceal Spell/Silent Spell while hidden work, or does that automatically make you observed since its not a Hide, Sneak or Step? How does being invisible/silenced/negate aroma change anything, if it does?
I believe the intent is that the majority of the cases you bring up are precisely what GM discretion is for. Rather than a chart of actions which are/are not obtrusive enough to give away your position, it's left in our judgment. I know that the variation caused by GM discretion can be annoying, but I don't feel this is one of those places where the mechanics lean on table-based rulings too much.
However, to quibble with a few of your examples:
-If you are around a corner, you are not in a position where most enemies can observe you (with vision) regardless whether you are sneaking or not. True, however, that this still means you may become Hidden instead of Undetected as the sounds of chugging echo across the field. That said, I think most GMs would accept actions to draw/consume a potion being unobtrusive, possibly calling for an extra roll if your hiding place happens to be the tall bushes adjacent to a foe.
-Creating a Diversion involves explicitly getting somebody's attention so that you can redirect it through words or gestures, so of course you would become at least Hidden on a success, even if you were previously Undetected. That said, if you were already Undetected, there is no reason not to simply Steal the object immediately, with the same net effect of Creating a Diversion (assuming Steal is successful, the mark sees you, but doesn't detect your theft. One may argue that Subtle Theft's benefit should apply if you were hidden with Stealth instead of Deception, but Creating a Diversion is your resort if you need to take somebody off their guard (and thus remove their immunity to theft), which is unnecessary if you're still Unnoticed.
The Invisible condition is pretty explicit how it interacts with Stealth
-You are Undetectable by vision
-If you are undetectable while Sneaking, you convert Critical Failures to Failures (i.e. you make a noise and are Hidden but not Observed)
-If you don't Sneak, you would become Observed but you cannot be Observed while Invisible so you become Hidden.
Silence and Negate Aroma both prevent a creature from being detected using sound or scent, and can be treated as invisibility for to those senses (though only creatures with special senses would be able to Observe a creature using these. Rather, Silence typically cuts out a target's imprecise sense, meaning they can Observe (precise) a visible creature but can't detect the location of a Hidden (imprecise) one (using sound at least).
Finally Avoid Notice states that you roll Stealth to avoid notice based on the Perception DCs of any foes as normal for the Sneak action. Technically this sentence applies to Stealth for Initiative, but it seems reasonable to treat Avoid Notice as the Exploration Mode version of Sneak, only instead of rolling at each action, you roll if there is something that could notice you or an encounter.