I'm looking for rules-legal ways to earn a profit during downtime, and quite possibly even in other modes of play. Note that, for this purpose, saving money to craft something, when I can earn a higher net gain by simply earning income, is not considered earning a profit. I want to be ahead of that.
The only thing that can be ignored, for the sake of this discussion, is adventuring, which nothing can really ever (or should ever) beat for profit gain.
What non-adventuring methods are out there, and which ones are the most profitable?
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I'm looking for rules-legal ways to earn a profit during downtime, and quite possibly even in other modes of play. Note that, for this purpose, saving money to craft something, when I can earn a higher net gain by simply earning income, is not considered earning a profit. I want to be ahead of that.
The only thing that can be ignored, for the sake of this discussion, is adventuring, which nothing can really ever (or should ever) beat for profit gain.
What non-adventuring methods are out there, and which ones are the most profitable?
Earning Income is only more profitable than Crafting if the settlement has high enough level tasks available.
Cut your hair and get a job, you bard!
Jokes aside, I'd say using Lore / Perform to Earn Income is the baseline you're looking at. What task might be available is very varying, I usually tend to give players a few different options when they ask, from the very available low-level task to the one-off, two-days-only urgent high level job (often higher than they are).
Note that Crafting for others rather than for yourself is a way to earn income, and gets paid like a normal job. However, unlike when saving money on items, you're not guaranteed to find readily available jobs of your level.
Essentially:
Earn Income -> whatever you can get, sometimes higher, sometimes lower
Craft savings -> always on-level
I don't think there really are any (or perhaps rather, there are meant to be any) ways you can do this without some GM shenanigans.
The complaints from past editions have been the factor that crafting is a broken system that people used to make exponentially more money compared to someone that doesn't. This might not have been so bad if all class/ancestry combinations could do so equally (though that creates cookie-cutter problems, meant for another thread), but because they couldn't, certain classes could be well above the WBL curve compared to others, and both in-combat and out-of-combat, it would show.
As for it being not a broken system, that's going to be wrong too. The only thing I can say about this is that in relation to that, it's not broken in a way that people can use it to make themselves exponentially more powerful. It's broken in that it provides no better function in an appropriate town with appropriate items and merchants available, which most every current AP provides for the players.
If we throw in inappropriate towns (such as a super high or super low level town) or inappropriate items (such as a super expensive/rare or super cheap/common listing), it shines a little better because it reigns those things back in, but if anyone is expecting to use it to get past A. WBL curves or B. Rarity systems or C. Merchant/item availability without serious investment and a very lenient GM, they're going to have a bad time with it and will hate every minute of it.
I mean, am I glad that crafting didn't basically necessitate somebody to do so in order to get an edge in the game? Sure. But it's now in this place where it's kind of meh to have and anyone who wants to try to do so is really doing it more for flavor purposes than anything. I mean, it's there to demonstrate how certain items can actually come into existence and aren't just thrown into the game out of thin air, but that's about all it's there for.
As an example, my Cavern Elf Wizard is a Tinker who now currently has access to both Magical Crafting and the Inventor feat. The problem becomes that I need formulas for everything, which takes downtime, gold, etc., not to mention the feats that I just now acquired. Then I need more downtime for actually crafting it.
Or I could just go to the town's current merchant district and buy what I'm looking for at the same going rate while simultaneously saving myself on tons of gold, downtime, and feats. If anything, I actually make more gold because I'm not wasting (as much) downtime on something that isn't "Earn Income."
And then you might ask "But what if I wanted to craft X Uncommon item or Y Rare item the merchant can't provide me with?" To which I say "Good luck having both the formula and/or the materials to craft it, much less a GM or AP that provides those things." And then there are the newly published rulebook items that are basically going to be non-existent with the older content because it wasn't conceived or published when that content was created.
I. It's broken in that it provides no better function in an appropriate town with appropriate items and merchants available, which most every current AP provides for the players.
This isn't true. Age of Ashes doesn't get you to a level appropriate town until book 5.
Isn't it the much easier to ask for the passive Perception DC of the proprietor of the Magic Shoppe?
And the rob him blind :)
I mean, there's your profit right there :)
lol. That's an idea.
If you're at least 11th level, open a stand selling meals comprised of 6 Goodberries for 1sp each. You can do that 3 times every 10 minutes, so in an 8 hour day, that's 14gp 4sp.
If the town is low on food, you could probably charge more.
If you're at least 11th level, open a stand selling meals comprised of 6 Goodberries for 1sp each. You can do that 3 times every 10 minutes, so in an 8 hour day, that's 14gp 4sp.
If the town is low on food, you could probably charge more.
I think the town would need to be low on food already to get a high enough demand for what you describe. 6 goodberries might provide adequate nutrients, but it would probably be less satisfying than eating an actual meal, especially if you were doing it everyday. The main advantage is that it takes less time to pop a berry in your mouth than eat a full meal, but I don't think time at such a premium for most NPCs that they'd all choose to favor that over enjoyment. And the few folks busy enough to make that trade would need to be nearby or else the commute time would offset the time saved eating.
Plus it takes you 10 minutes to cast and the berries only last for 10 minutes. That's actually a really narrow window of time for anyone to obtain them and eat them. And then you've got the "freshly picked berry" target to consider.
I'd probably let someone make money through Good Berry... by using an appropriate Lore skill and rolling to Earn Income as normal. There's no mechanical advantage to using it, IMO, except for very narrow (and kind of contrived) circumstances.
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Spellcasting Services - I'm assuming we are thinking outside of the normal box of generating money via the downtime system so there is some flexibility here so bear with me.
P-p-profile picture line b-b-b-b-
BREAK!
Lvl 1 - 3 gp
Lvl 2 - 7 gp
Lvl 3 - 18 gp
Lvl 4 - 40 gp
Lvl 5 - 80 gp
Lvl 6 - 160 gp
Lvl 7 - 360 gp
Lvl 8 - 720 gp
Lvl 9 - 1800 gp
If you're using all of your spell slots each day to provide Spellcasting services even a low-level Character can make a tidy profit even if you only account for 50% of the cost as that's how much a PC gains when they "Sell" something they own.
Going all-in with the "Farmers Market Druid" at Level 5 the PC could cast Goodberry three times a day EASILY for 4.5 gp after "Tax and Overhead."
They then use their actual Spell Slots to make another 4.5 gp from 1st Level Spells, 10.5 gp from 2nd Level Spells, and 18 gp off their 3rd Level Spells. 37.5 gp for a single day's work is a MASSIVE improvement over the normal Downtime income guidelines.
I imagine that MOST of the time the demand for Spellcasting Services won't likely exceed the supply in a given area but this can probably work well enough if coordinated with the GM as a way to help scrounge up some money really quick in order to serve some actual purpose (Oh man, Jimmi is in the lockup and I need to pay his bail by TONIGHT!).
If you're at least 11th level, open a stand selling meals comprised of 6 Goodberries for 1sp each. You can do that 3 times every 10 minutes, so in an 8 hour day, that's 14gp 4sp.
If the town is low on food, you could probably charge more.
I think the town would need to be low on food already to get a high enough demand for what you describe. 6 goodberries might provide adequate nutrients, but it would probably be less satisfying than eating an actual meal, especially if you were doing it everyday. The main advantage is that it takes less time to pop a berry in your mouth than eat a full meal, but I don't think time at such a premium for most NPCs that they'd all choose to favor that over enjoyment. And the few folks busy enough to make that trade would need to be nearby or else the commute time would offset the time saved eating.
Plus it takes you 10 minutes to cast and the berries only last for 10 minutes. That's actually a really narrow window of time for anyone to obtain them and eat them. And then you've got the "freshly picked berry" target to consider.
I'd probably let someone make money through Good Berry... by using an appropriate Lore skill and rolling to Earn Income as normal. There's no mechanical advantage to using it, IMO, except for very narrow (and kind of contrived) circumstances.
The casting time was errata'd. It only takes 2 actions to cast.
Also, I was definitely not being serious enough to argue about the merits of it. I was putting forward an intentionally ridiculous idea. ;-)
I'm sure there are enough silly Vegans in Pathfinder to buy my overpriced berries, just as there are enough in real life to buy Whole Food's Asparagus Water.
This isn't true. Age of Ashes doesn't get you to a level appropriate town until book 5.I. It's broken in that it provides no better function in an appropriate town with appropriate items and merchants available, which most every current AP provides for the players.
Ironically, book 3 for me, but that's only because
lol. That's an idea.Isn't it the much easier to ask for the passive Perception DC of the proprietor of the Magic Shoppe?
And the rob him blind :)
I mean, there's your profit right there :)
Heh. I would also categorize it as adventuring.
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lol. That's an idea.Isn't it the much easier to ask for the passive Perception DC of the proprietor of the Magic Shoppe?
And the rob him blind :)
I mean, there's your profit right there :)
The proprietor is unlikely to have any items higher level than they are for precisely this reason.
Which is to say, either they're a drop in the bucket for you, or said proprietor is high enough level that this is risky.
Either strange folk arent welcome, or shopkeepers have protection from them somehow. Society would collapse otherwise.
Which is really what the GM should do in response to high level rogues stealing from mid level markets. Have merchants go broke, workers unemployed, civil chaos, riots, people starving, guards and bounty hunters looking for the thieves.....
But you need a flexible plot for that.
Stealing is totally fine, anything that's worthwhile to steal at your level is usually an "adventure" (1st level character stealing from a travelling merchant, 16th level character stealing from a world-renowned arcane museum).
I have never run a game with unrestricted magic mart.
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Best to nip this in the bud: the whole magic shop vendor concept is an out-of-game construct of convenience, and the only proper response to a player wanting to steal from them is an out of game response:
Depends on what you mean by 'magic shop vendor'. Having shops that sell magic items of whatever level in whatever town, and are set up exactly like a grocery store with nameless clerks behind the counter would certainly be unrealistic, yes. Having on-level places for the town or city in question, where the proprietor makes magic items on commission or buys those PCs sell is not unrealistic at all.
Magic items being fairly common is true in-world, and people are able to produce them simply by being of the appropriate level and having the right Skills and Skill Feat. Having those people sell them is not super strange.
But that means that most people selling magic items are, inevitably, of a level to create them. Which implies things about their capabilities, doesn't it?
Best to nip this in the bud: the whole magic shop vendor concept is an out-of-game construct of convenience, and the only proper response to a player wanting to steal from them is an out of game response:Depends on what you mean by 'magic shop vendor'. Having shops that sell magic items of whatever level in whatever town, and are set up exactly like a grocery store with nameless clerks behind the counter would certainly be unrealistic, yes. Having on-level places for the town or city in question, where the proprietor makes magic items on commission or buys those PCs sell is not unrealistic at all.
Magic items being fairly common is true in-world, and people are able to produce them simply by being of the appropriate level and having the right Skills and Skill Feat. Having those people sell them is not super strange.
But that means that most people selling magic items are, inevitably, of a level to create them. Which implies things about their capabilities, doesn't it?
This isn't strictly true anymore with NPCs having decoupled combat skills and every day Life skills. A vendor could have great Crafting but poor defensive abilities or even perception. Though nothing says they have to be bad at it, and if they are crafting items that require castings of spells than they must also have access to that level of spellcasting.
If nothing else, Crafters could probably rig up some pretty sweet magical security traps, and/or have such services contracted out to the vendors who buy their stuff.
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This isn't strictly true anymore with NPCs having decoupled combat skills and every day Life skills. A vendor could have great Crafting but poor defensive abilities or even perception. Though nothing says they have to be bad at it, and if they are crafting items that require castings of spells than they must also have access to that level of spellcasting.
If nothing else, Crafters could probably rig up some pretty sweet magical security traps, and/or have such services contracted out to the vendors who buy their stuff.
Technically, yes. But in that case, as you say, I'd expect a scarily effective automated security system or appropriately leveled mercenary guards.
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Yes, but nothing says you can steal from them as a downtime activity either.
No, I agree it isn't.
And if you make it an adventure, you make it an adventure. However, telling the players "I have an adventure already, and it ain't about stealing from shopkeepers" is entirely fine. Your players can't derail your story and turn your adventure into a sandbox just because they want to fulfil their selfish power trips.
I consider OOC solutions to OOC problems perfectly reasonable, but 'I want to steal from a magic item shop' is not necessarily an OOC problem, it can be a perfectly reasonable IC ambition that can be responded to as such.
Bottom line: don't feel compelled to spend a single iota of energy on explaining why stealing from vendors is non-trivial. Just expect your players to understand it's a game, and by trivially gaining loot, the game is wrecked.
The bottom line for me is that I don't consider a statement like 'People who have level 12 items have level 12 defenses because otherwise they obviously wouldn't have the items for long.' to actually involve meaningful effort from me as a GM, and think it adds quite a bit of verisimilitude to the world to have that kind of brief in-world explanations of why this isn't casually doable. I, and my players, like it when the world makes sense without me having to resort to 'it's a game' type explanations, and it's easy to avoid such an explanation in this case.
Coming up with detailed security plans is more effort than I'd generally put in, but it's not generally necessary to maintain verisimilitude, either.
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Stealing isnt a downtime activity
This is true. Or rather, if it is it simply follows earn income guidelines. It's there to give a PC more flavor while they spend their downtime - perhaps it even opens the door for some interesting role play.
, but its not an "adventure".
It very much can be. Heists are "adventures" and even the level 1 heist of sneaking into the owner's room of a tavern to steal a document of ownership is one.
A lot of it comes down to proper communication between the GM and the players. A GM who is totally blind to where their players want the story to head is worse for it. Players who refuse to communicate, establish what kind of story is being told at the table and work within that story are worse off too.
Ninjaed by Henro.
I just wanted to say that using thievery to earn an income would totally make sense as a downtime activity.
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In other words, any player demanding that the focus of the game should be wrenched into his or her loot adventure is entirely and wholly unreasonable. That includes trying to guilt-trip the GM by sulking.
The only responsible player attitude is to fully understand if the game turns out not to be about vendors and your awesome Thievery bonus at all.
Yep, and this boils down to communication. If the players are more interested in magic heists than dungeon delving - perhaps a compromise can be reached, or the game needs to change. The players too need to be aware that they can't always get what they want in the moment and sometimes have to follow along.
Of course, a level 13 character earns 20 gp from a particularly successful day of pickpocketing or catburglary.
They would certainly not earn half of 2500 gp, which is what a typical item stocked by a level 13 shopkeeper is worth.
Indeed - downtime theft would probably be a lot more "safe" than magic item burglary. If you want to pickpocket and fence for a tidy profit, you can do so as a 13th level character. If you want serious payday on the other hand, you need to plan, prepare and take a serious risk. In other words, you need an adventure.
Nothing in this Edition is free save for death
I mean, technically, due to the rounding rules, anything that costs less than 1 CP is free. This would include:
1 blowgun dart
9 sling bullets
9 candles
9 pieces of chalk
3 foot ladder
1 cup of oil
4 sacks
9 foot pole
7 hours of floorspace lodging
11 hours of stabling
23 hours use of a guard dog
3 hours use of a riding dog
2 hours use of a riding horse
11 hours use of a pack animal
2 hours use of a riding pony
:-)
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Yes, but nothing says you can steal from them as a downtime activity either.
This might be a good example of using “physical skills to make money, such as . . . Thievery to pick pockets. If you’re using a skill other than Crafting, Lore, or Performance, the DC tends to be significantly higher.” CRB p. 236.
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All that passage does is make it harder to use Thievery than Crafting, Lore, or Performance. It doesn't change the amount of money you earn.
No, that passage makes it possible and harder to use Thievery to Earn Income. And I’m pretty okay with that. There are people who make their livings as thieves, but the structure of society is such that it is more difficult than making a living practicing a “socially acceptable” skill.
So it is still a far cry from the scenario most people mean when they ask if they can steal from vendors.
That’s the point. It’s right in the rules how it works. You can Earn Income with Thievery at an inflated DC for “normal” returns (and probably big problems on a critical failure) or you can play it out in Exploration and Encounter mode like any other “high reward” activity.
Nothing in this Edition is free save for deathI mean, technically, due to the rounding rules, anything that costs less than 1 CP is free. This would include:
1 blowgun dart
9 sling bullets
9 candles
9 pieces of chalk
3 foot ladder
1 cup of oil
4 sacks
9 foot pole
7 hours of floorspace lodging
11 hours of stabling
23 hours use of a guard dog
3 hours use of a riding dog
2 hours use of a riding horse
11 hours use of a pack animal
2 hours use of a riding pony:-)
Go out of business? Don't be silly. Look at all the sales we've been making!
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You seem to be replying to a poster that advocates getting free loot out of vendors.
You're not.
I was responding to this:
Yes, but nothing says you can steal from them as a downtime activity either.
I think the text of CRB p. 236 says that you can steal from vendors as a downtime activity, but that it’s relatively inefficient because of the increased DC. That’s not “free loot,” though, because there’s the opportunity cost of not using more efficient skills for the Earn Income action.
There are two methods in the Core Rules by which to steal from vendors. Earn Income as an inefficient downtime activity or playing the heist out in Encounter/Exploration mode with all that that entails.
The Infiltration subsystem in the GMG arguably provides a third method, I suppose.