Bombs are items that are specifically activates by a strike with the manipulate trait, Telekinetic projectile as written makes a ranged spell attack, and just requires an item, but also overrides the item's damage and traits, so bombs dont work
Poisons are a trickier case. According to Archives of Nethys: "An injury poison is activated by applying it to a weapon or ammunition, and it affects the target of the first Strike made using the poisoned item". RAW, you still aren't technically doing a strike, so a DM is within their right to say no, but if you're the DM, you do have a pretty solid case for ruling that is does. It's definitely a houserule though, so warn players ahead of time
Nah, I'm solidly in the camp of wanting it to work, but sadly not :(
There's still design space for homebrew/future books though
This gets a step weirder when you consider contact poisons rather than injury. Those just need to be applied to a creatures skin. Telekinetic Projectile could be a great vector for a simple ball with Black Lotus extract slathered onto it.
Even raw is ambiguous when it comes to anything on the item being flung. Sure the properties of the item itself are ignored, but arguably contact poisons would still trigger.
This gets sticky when the target is wearing armor or even ample clothing though, so may be best just to ignore this entire interaction except in a "rule of cool" moment.
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TK projectile transports item A to an enemy at B.
Item A is not activated in any way by the spell (so neither by the impact), but it is still present at B.
There are several items worthwhile to deliver in such a way. And just because the spell's attack won't break item A, it will often have a hard surface to fall onto. Or it could be intact and present for your archer friend to shoot.
Yet note item A has to be unattended before doing this, so the container can't be too breakable if you want to drop it first. It might be simpler (and have better range) to use a Strike vs. the target square instead.
So poison, smoke bombs (w/ a fire spell following), oil, and other hazards one might place beforehand work here. (Unlikely though for items like caltrops which should be scattered evenly.)
So as for contact poison, I'm not sure what container would be safe to transport it in, but likely to open or break after the spell's done.
TK projectile transports item A to an enemy at B.
Item A is not activated in any way by the spell (so neither by the impact), but it is still present at B.
There are several items worthwhile to deliver in such a way. And just because the spell's attack won't break item A, it will often have a hard surface to fall onto. Or it could be intact and present for your archer friend to shoot.
Yet note item A has to be unattended before doing this, so the container can't be too breakable if you want to drop it first. It might be simpler (and have better range) to use a Strike vs. the target square instead.So poison, smoke bombs (w/ a fire spell following), oil, and other hazards one might place beforehand work here. (Unlikely though for items like caltrops which should be scattered evenly.)
So as for contact poison, I'm not sure what container would be safe to transport it in, but likely to open or break after the spell's done.
Contact poisons can be applied to the outer surface of virtually any object as far as I can tell, and that object can be left on the ground or otherwise unattended with no issue. Hence my ball example.
A rogue with telekinetic projectile could keep a ball slathered with any contact poison in a container, maybe a bag of holding, dump that ball on the ground and TK projectile it at an opponent, probably in a single turn if they begin the turn with the container in hand.
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As others have noted the object has to be unattended, meaning it's not in anyone's possession, on their person or held. It has to be sitting somewhere in the nearby environment within range so the vast majority of any usages that players might imagine are instantly eliminated by dint of the action economy requiring them to spend 1-3 actions retrieving the item from their person and placing it on the ground or nearby solid surface. Even in situations where the round begins and the item is already in hand, that action would have had to be spent in previous rounds (Unless we are spitballing a Character concept who always just HAPPENS to be holding their special TK gimmick item in hand even outside of combat) and if it's in any container of any sort that's going to cost them at least 1 action and if it's in their Backpack that's 2 actions, if it's in a container inside of their backpack that's three actions just to drop the item.
Next, as a general rule, all spell effects will do what they say they do and nothing more, for reference see the rigorous discussion on if Grease is flammable.
The spell explicitly calls out that the attack isn't affected in any way by any Traits or Magic properties the hurled item has. It already does comparable damage to most of the other Cantrips and has scaling damage that is appropriate.
I think there is plenty of space in the level 1-3 range for a Spell that costs 2 Actions, and a Spell Slot in order to hurl an item with the "Thrown" or "Bomb" Trait and trigger it item with some additional Bonus Damage, but this type of effect far outstrips the power a Cantrip is intended to have.
Allowing the spell to do anything more than its listed damage in combat is probably a bad idea because once you ignore the Unattended requirement, start adding the Traits of the item, and effectively doubling the base damage of the spell you're going to run into a slippery slope situation where more and more ludicrous things will be tried such as higher-level Alchemical Bombs, Spellstrike Ammunition, and lighter Melee Weapons.
No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage.Seems pretty clear to me that you aren't supposed to be able to do fancy stuff.
I generally agree where the item being flung itself is concerned. However I still have my reservations about the effects of say, a poison slathered on a blade used with the spell.
No specific traits or magic properties of the hurled item affect the attack or the damage.
This tells me that if say you flung a +1 Striking dagger with Telekinetic projectile, you would not gain additional damage or a bonus to hit due to the traits or properties of the dagger, just as you wouldn't take a range penalty from it's thrown trait if the target is farther than 10 feet away. But what about a Poison applied to such a dagger? Telekinetic Projectile does an appropriate damage type, so you could use an injury poison or a contact poison in the effort. Arguably if you did it right, you could even figure out a method for applying an inhaled poison.
As to throwing bombs, I agree that you wouldn't do the bombs basic damage as though you had thrown the bomb. You also would not apply the Splash damage of the bomb due to Splash being a trait of the weapon. It is odd that bombs are easily broken when thrown by hand, but not when thrown with this spell, but I get it for game balances sake.
However Telekinetic Projectile says nothing about the effects or traits of an item like a poison applied to it. I doubt this sort of thing would come up very often, since you would have to pre-poison the item to be hurled and have it out when you go to TK projectile it, but I could definitely see an assassin style character using this sort of "combo" to apply poisons discretely using conceal and silent spell.
I feel like Telekinetic Projectile probably should have specified a non-descript, non-gear item with a negligible weight. This would take most of these issues off the table entirely.
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Yeah there's a plausibility issue here. How come bombs lobbed with telekinetic projectile don't explode on impact? Why doesn't poisoned shrapnel inject the poison?
Clearly there's a game balance intention.
Imagine an alchemist with a wizard MCD and Telekinetic Projectile. He pulls out a bomb, and then launches it with TK at 60ft, using an Intelligence-based spell attack. If he hits he does damage for both the spell and the bomb.
- He avoids paying MAP for doing two attacks.
- He attacks in what would be the bomb's third range increment at no penalty.
- The spell attack is Int-based, which might be higher than the alchemist's Dex.
I'd be a little less concerned about poisons, because poisons are always assumed to piggyback on some other delivery method. But for bombs it's just a bit too nice to be true.
So if you need a reason why it doesn't work with bombs, you could say that the brusque acceleration of Telekinetic Projectile would cause the bomb to explode on launch. A gentle toss is better, but wouldn't do the impact damage of the spell.
If you need a plausible (magic) reason why TK Projectile's projectiles matter little, you could imagine that the item is sheathed in telekinetic energy. The item acts like a seed for a raindrop or pearl or whatnot.
Given the object can be of negligible size, a straw, pebble, or actual seed perhaps, this makes some sense. The item's only a focus for the power of the spell; the only factor being its relative shape for determining B/S/P damage. Also, the item comes out unscathed, since no damage gets dealt to it. So it must have been cushioned by something, right?
Just realized one could throw sponges. Soak them in your favorite hazardous material. The spell may not splash the contents, but the contents are now over there and exposed.
And now further realizing one could throw ridiculous items as their shtick, i.e. have a lethal pillow fight or kill w/ plushies.
- He avoids paying MAP for doing two attacks.
Telekinetic Projectile suffers MAP just like any other attack that has an attack roll.
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- He avoids paying MAP for doing two attacks.Telekinetic Projectile suffers MAP just like any other attack that has an attack roll.
I mean compared to making two separate attacks, one with a bomb and one with something else (like another bomb, or telekinetic projectile). You're getting the damage potential of two attacks but without the second one being subject to MAP.
I mean compared to making two separate attacks, one with a bomb and one with something else (like another bomb, or telekinetic projectile). You're getting the damage potential of two attacks but without the second one being subject to MAP.- He avoids paying MAP for doing two attacks.Telekinetic Projectile suffers MAP just like any other attack that has an attack roll.
OIC