What do you mean? Looking at ONLY soldier-specific options (not general feats or race options)
The Ambusher and fourfold tactician fighting styles favor range. Hunter has no preference for range or melee.
Spec Ops Training works just as well for expanding the party role of a ranged soldier as a melee one.
Lightning Kip Up and Springing Shot are definitely feat boosts that have more utility for a ranged soldier.
Armory was the Ranged Soldier's book.
Nobody else got nearly as much from it. I think they can survive COM not being as much about them.
Ranged combat just doesn't have as many moving parts or cinematic ideas to emulate. While its really involved IRL, its very nuanced involvement that you can't really show. So it doesn't have all the flashy moves that moving around and melee combat get, which means fewer options which means fewer powerful options.
which means fewer powerful options.
Not sure that really holds up in practice. Starfinder has a reputation for being a ranged combatant's game for a reason.
which means fewer powerful options.Not sure that really holds up in practice. Starfinder has a reputation for being a ranged combatant's game for a reason.
I really don't see that at all, either in the theorycrafting or the actual play.
On the theory side, the melee are adding strength and a half to every hit (melee soldier) , or strength and charisma (solarion)
In terms of seeing it in practice, after round 1 and a haste circuit the melee have easy access to flying and starfinder hastes pounce. They're full attacking after round 1 no matter what, and without melee butt being in the way. Ranged doesn't have the math behind it, melee doesn't have a -2 for shooting through vesk tail, and they get the occaional extra attack from stepup and or reach.
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I've seen people claim that Starfinder is mainly about ranged combat plenty of times. I still haven't figured out why people keep saying that after playing it, though...
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Depends on how you play the game. Starfinder can accommodate either kind of player, however, the advantage of a sniper is their motto "One shot, one kill" is not easy to accomplish with this rules set. Also, a game based upon team actions does not lend itself as well to snipers, as they are trained to operate independently for extended periods of time and then strike without warning. This will make it difficult for a player to make this their primary focus and see a lot of action consistently.
Compared to D&D 3.5, Starfinder is a ranged character's dream.
(Dredging my memory here, so forgive inaccuracies)
D&D 3.5 you had short bows. They did 1d6 plus nothin' damage. There were also slings. They did 1d4 + STR. For base weapons, that is pretty much it. Throwing knives, clubs had a range increment, as did short spears,...
Then moving over to Starfinder. Pistols, longarms, heavy guns, and grenades. The small arms, longarms, and heavy weapons all get weapon specialization damage added. All of them can be made with various damage types.
It is much easier to make a viable ranged character in Starfinder. (It was possible to create a good ranged character in D&D 3.5, but it was not easy)
Now, compared to melee damage in Starfinder, ranged characters aren't terribly powerful. Certainly not overpowering. But still viable.
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Yeah, it was something I saw when running Dead Suns. The writers of the AP seemed to vastly underestimate what kind of damage a soldier optimized for movement, melee, and initiative could really do. However, the best tactic really seems to be having one dedicated melee bruiser and a party of ranged characters. Having range is strictly the more flexible option as there are always more ways to shut down melee and shut it down hard.
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Yeah, it was something I saw when running Dead Suns. The writers of the AP seemed to vastly underestimate what kind of damage a soldier optimized for movement, melee, and initiative could really do. However, the best tactic really seems to be having one dedicated melee bruiser and a party of ranged characters. Having range is strictly the more flexible option as there are always more ways to shut down melee and shut it down hard.
I think I've seen fog and cover shut down ranged more than I've seen melee get shut down. A jet pack and haste circuit are real levelers.
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Now, compared to melee damage in Starfinder, ranged characters aren't terribly powerful. Certainly not overpowering. But still viable.
The composite longbow still did d8+strength damage. it was and still is in pathfinder the only ranged weapon worth using, but its a VERY good weapon, arguably the best one in the game.
Because outside of some weird way to gain pounce , a melee character in pathfinder has to make a choice to either hold still or lose half their damage.
Starfinder gives ranged characters OPTIONS for weapons, but not fighting style or a real power boost.
Its kind of weird that the best martial in a game about knights in shining armor is the guy with a bow, and the best martial in the game about lasers is the guy swinging the pike.
I think I've seen fog and cover shut down ranged more than I've seen melee get shut down. A jet pack and haste circuit are real levelers.
Eh, fog is a bit rare all told and also messes with melee player to a degree. Cover is a modifier to ranged combat, not something that entirely shuts it down. Jet packs and haste circuits can also be targeted by smart enemies and literally shut down... but this is a rabbit hole. Also, much like the haste circuit and jet pack there is likely equipment that addresses these concerns.
These modifiers are things a GM can employ to keep their players challenged and engaged. Ranged weapons have an edge in flexibility against these since all they need from level 1 is line of effect and the stuff that messes with them specifically usually need a bit more justification.
In the end, my ideal party all has guns save for a melee striker. The striker blocks other melee specialists and gives enemies a reason to not get comfortable behind cover. The rest of the party focuses fire until each target is dead.
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At low level, melee takes a big sprint ahead of ranged damage. At later levels ranged can overtake melee though, when the bigger damage dice from guns start measuring up to melee static damage, and ranged has better ways of reducing full attack to-hit penalties.
But for that to happen, you do need a melee character to keep enemies from chasing ranged characters all over the map.
I think that compared to PF1, Starfinder is a lot more ranged friendly simply by getting rid of the Precise Shot tax. But just because ranged combat isn't miserable for the average PC, doesn't mean melee isn't also a strong option.
Eh, fog is a bit rare all told and also messes with melee player to a degree.
The melee character has a miss chance of 20 percent. The ranged character has a miss chance of 1/ the number of squares in the fog.
Jet packs and haste circuits can also be targeted by smart enemies and literally shut down...
By smart enemies or probably not legal tactics like trying to hack an armor upgrade?
Every time I have seen someone try to handwave "smart play" in order to back an argument it's been something you either probably couldn't do at all or definitely couldn't do at all
but this is a rabbit hole. Also, much like the haste circuit and jet pack there is likely equipment that addresses these concerns.
Like what?
Look, you can't just handwave a counterargument of "insert problem with the evidence you're providing here"
In the end, my ideal party all has guns save for a melee striker. The striker blocks other melee specialists and gives enemies a reason to not get comfortable behind cover. The rest of the party focuses fire until each target is dead.
getting the benefit from flanking is pretty big in a system without a whole lot of hit modifiers.
Okay, a little hostile there. I really wasn't wanting to devote a chunk of time today doing a breakdown of pros and cons but here we are...I'll have a response in a bit.
To be clear, my response was more about encouraging a second look at the 'problem' with fresh eyes but here's my reasoning:
The melee character has a miss chance of 20 percent. The ranged character has a miss chance of 1/ the number of squares in the fog.
I don't know where you're pulling this from. The environmental rules I found on the SRDs say:
Whether in the form of a low-lying cloud or a mist rising from the ground, fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet, including darkvision. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment (20% miss chance).
Which, to be clear, is not great for ranged characters.
There's also smoke which is a 20% miss chance on everyone.By smart enemies or probably not legal tactics like trying to hack an armor upgrade?
Every time I have seen someone try to handwave "smart play" in order to back an argument it's been something you either probably couldn't do at all or definitely couldn't do at all
A) Not legal how? I was speaking in terms of stuff a GM might use to challenge their players. Custom hazards and niche abilities for enemies are par for the course there.
B) A cursory look through the SRD finds the Mechanic's Overload ability that can specifically target armor upgrades. Less specific is the Manipulate Tech spell which while it might not work as I hope does give me the hilarious image of a bunch of hardened commandos being unable to turn off their jet packs. So, unless there is some ruling I'm not familiar with, I'm willing to bet there are more abilities that can target armor upgrades.Like what?
Look, you can't just handwave a counterargument of "insert problem with the evidence you're providing here"
Again, a cursory look:
Revealing Scope: Reduces miss chances by 10%Echolocators: Blindsight (Sound)
Wide-Spectrum Ocular Implant: Infrared vision
Starfinder is a gear heavy game and more is being planned for release. I called this a rabbit-hole because specific arguments on the basis of gear will likely be rendered out-of-date quickly.
Getting the benefit from flanking is pretty big in a system without a whole lot of hit modifiers.
So are the benefits of Covering Fire and Harrying Fire. Also there is the Coordinated shot feat which is specifically something a melee character can take to support their ranged allies.
To be clear, my response was more about encouraging a second look at the 'problem' with fresh eyes but here's my reasoning:
Which would only be relevant if i haven't looked at the issue a second time. If I'd just played for 15 seconds reached a conclusion, didn't examine it, didn't discuss it, didn't think about it. So do you see why you're getting a little hostility?
I don't reach my conclusions Lightly. I don't reach my conclusions randomly. I am willing to spell out exactly how I reached my conclussions. I will change my mind or listen if there's evidenced disagreement to be had but someone claiming superiority through the incredibly vague "smart play" is just a claim of having a better position, it does less than nothing to show it.
I don't know where you're pulling this from. The environmental rules I found on the SRDs say:
Whether in the form of a low-lying cloud or a mist rising from the ground, fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet, including darkvision. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment (20% miss chance).Which, to be clear, is not great for ranged characters.
There's also smoke which is a 20% miss chance on everyone.
All vision beyond 5 feet is obscured.
The ranged character is further away than 5 feetThe ranged character doesn't know which square to aim at.
So their miss chance is 1/ all the squares in the fog (or well, .5 out of all of the squares since even if they guesse right they still have a 50 50 miss chance...)
Or at the very least .5 / the squares where you think your vesk is swinging around their flame dahsko in "that area over thereish"
A) Not legal how?
There's no mechanism for just anyone hacking an armor upgrade. Whats the DC? How long does it take? What tier is an armor upgrade? The rules don't come out and say it but they seem to run on the general assumption that you need physical access to hack something.
I was speaking in terms of stuff a GM might use to challenge their players. Custom hazards and niche abilities for enemies are par for the course there.
DM handwavium is not a point in favor of ranged combat. DM handwavium could equally shut down armor upgrades, or ranged combat, or panda bears. Its not an argument in favor of one combat style over another. The dm can "challenge" ANY playstyle by shutting off something the player needs. That is not an argument to level differences between different playstyles.
B) A cursory look through the SRD finds the Mechanic's Overload ability that can specifically target armor upgrades.
Which also means you probably can't hack them otherwise. So this is an incredibly niche ability from a small subset of one kind of enemy. (Flying mechanics that have taken this hack). Something existing is not the same a something being so prevalent that it changes how the game works.
So, unless there is some ruling I'm not familiar with, I'm willing to bet there are more abilities that can target armor upgrades.
There might be, but as I don't see them come up all that often compared to the problems that happen to ranged attackers I don't consider reliability to be the saving grace of ranged combat in starfinder the way it was in pathfinder.
-Something as simple as a mook dropping prone behind cover for +8 AC can put a serious crimp in ranged combat.
-Full attacking isn't nearly as important to your damage output as it was in pathfinder/3.x
-Flying hasted melee full attack after round 1 anyway.
-Melee has a pretty big numerical advantage because of the static damage boost.
Wide-Spectrum Ocular Implant: Infrared vision
That one won't work. Seeing through fog isn't one of the things they're listed as doing.
For the scope, the miss chance isn't the problem with not seeing your foe. Its picking the square.
(Clearsight goggles speficially negate fog but its hard to have a solution to every problem, especially at low levels)
So are the benefits of Covering Fire and Harrying Fire.
Covering fire and harrying fire eat up the parties action economy. Flanking an opponent does not.
Also there is the Coordinated shot feat which is specifically something a melee character can take to support their ranged allies.
Requires an investment of a feat. For now its not bad, as more and better feats come out its probably going to slide to less than optimal.
Okay chief, we're clearly playing two different games here. You're more simulationist than I am. I'm not conceding defeat here or dismissing your arguments, I just really don't have the energy for resolving this 'rabbit–duck illusion' today and probably shouldn't have spoken up.
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Okay chief, we're clearly playing two different games here. You're more simulationist
Nothing in my post relies on simulational styles of play.
The only thing that gets remotely close to it is shooting an opponent in the fog. In which case, the harder you stick to the rules the WORSE that gets for the gunner.