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Activate Two Actions (envision), or a different activation if otherwise specified ; Frequency once per day; Effect You cast enlarge on yourself or use one of the other activated abilities granted by a later Living Monolith feat.
Does enlarge heighten?
Would you become huge at level 7?
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That is a great question. Living Monolith breaks the "standard" language used to grant someone a spell. Usually items that grant spells in this way would specify a spell level for the spell.
Example:
Activate [two-actions] envision; Frequency once per hour; Effect You
cast a 4th-level charm spell (DC 38).
Ka Stone Ritual does not specify a Spell level in this way, nor does it actually grant you access to the spell like an Innate spell. It is written as a spell used by activating a Magic Item.
It is also interesting to note that none of the other spells granted by current Living Monolith feats have heightening bonuses. But we should have a spell level attached to them for counteracting purposes. This may be an oversight, or I am missing some general rule about spells having a "basic" spell level when one isn't called out.
My gut feeling is that the Enlarge spell, and by extension your other feat granted spells, would be heightened along with your item bonuses granted by the Ka stone. So as you level, you gain the associated "spell level" for each activated spell you have access to. This feels fine balance wise as you can only activate your Ka stone once per day for any of these spells.
That isn't specifically called out in the rules however, it is just how I would run the archetype as it would quickly lose relevance otherwise.
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All of the spells come from the Ka Stone, as envision is the activation for magic items. As such, the level should be a set one: IMO, this means enlarge is the baseline spell and doesn't improve.
That isn't specifically called out in the rules however, it is just how I would run the archetype as it would quickly lose relevance otherwise.
It never runs out of relevance as you can use other abilities with later feats: you only have one use of magic abilities so if you don't feel the base enlarge is doing it for you, then use stone meld or stone tell or zone of truth or... That and it doesn't see odd to me that a 4th level feat might not be as relevant as you grow: for instance, Order Magic [4th level druid] gets you the base order spell but that loses some relevance when you can Primal Summons or Stormwind Flight or Impaling Briars with those focus points. It's just part of leveling up.
Okay, so for the purposes of the Zone of Truth granted with the 12th level feat Judgment of the Monolith, what spell level is it? 3rd? Or 6th? This is important for Counteract checks.
The feat doesn't specify. None of the Living Monolith spells specify a spell level.
Also note that unlike Zone of Truth, your base order spell from the example given, whatever it may be, auto heightens like any other Focus Spell would.
Instead the Living Monolith is limited to 1 casting of 1 Ka Stone spell per day, and can't regain that casting until daily preparations. This is also unlike your example where you could simply refocus to regain a focus point and use your base order spell again.
Edit: Another factor that Living Monolith doesn't provide: A DC for Zone of Truth. It isn't an Innate spell, so you wouldn't necessarily use CHA as your ability modifier. The Circlet of Persuasion specifies a DC for it's Charm Spell, so why wouldn't Living Monolith for it's Zone of Truth? This is missing information.
Okay, so for the purposes of the Zone of Truth granted with the 12th level feat Judgment of the Monolith, what spell level is it? 3rd? Or 6th? This is important for Counteract checks.
The only thing we know is it's the minimum level to cast the spell... That's it. As it's cast by an item, there is no way to figure it out: its not character based.
Instead the Living Monolith is limited to 1 casting of 1 Ka Stone spell per day, and can't regain that casting until daily preparations. This is also unlike your example where you could simply refocus to regain a focus point and use your base order spell again.
You 1000% missed the point: when you're casting from a limited pool, you're lower level abilities lose relevance. Are you going to use your focus for a 1st level focus spell or the 12th level one that's much stronger? The amount of times in a day you can use them is completely irrelevant in this: both are quite limited in the short term. If time is unlimited, you can cast either as much as you want and if time is limited, so are the uses for both.
Edit: Another factor that Living Monolith doesn't provide: A DC for Zone of Truth. It isn't an Innate spell, so you wouldn't necessarily use CHA as your ability modifier. The Circlet of Persuasion specifies a DC for it's Charm Spell, so why wouldn't Living Monolith for it's Zone of Truth? This is missing information.
I understand the issues, but they are issues we can't answer. I answered what I could as non-heightened enlarge doesn't care about level.
PS: As to Counteract? No way to tell as it requires level and we have no way to figure it out.
Okay, so for the purposes of the Zone of Truth granted with the 12th level feat Judgment of the Monolith, what spell level is it? 3rd? Or 6th? This is important for Counteract checks.The only thing we know is it's the minimum level to cast the spell... That's it. As it's cast by an item, there is no way to figure it out: its not character based.
Instead the Living Monolith is limited to 1 casting of 1 Ka Stone spell per day, and can't regain that casting until daily preparations. This is also unlike your example where you could simply refocus to regain a focus point and use your base order spell again.You 1000% missed the point: when you're casting from a limited pool, you're lower level abilities lose relevance. Are you going to use your focus for a 1st level focus spell or the 12th level one that's much stronger? The amount of times in a day you can use them is completely irrelevant in this: both are quite limited in the short term. If time is unlimited, you can cast either as much as you want and if time is limited, so are the uses for both.
Edit: Another factor that Living Monolith doesn't provide: A DC for Zone of Truth. It isn't an Innate spell, so you wouldn't necessarily use CHA as your ability modifier. The Circlet of Persuasion specifies a DC for it's Charm Spell, so why wouldn't Living Monolith for it's Zone of Truth? This is missing information.I understand the issues, but they are issues we can't answer. I answered what I could as non-heightened enlarge doesn't care about level.
PS: As to Counteract? No way to tell as it requires level and we have no way to figure it out.
#1 This is the problem as I see it. The Ka Stone should specify what level and DC the spells are cast at. They do not. This causes multiple issues that I addressed: Just cast them at the closest relevant spell level. The Ka Stone's bonus against Death effects scales with your level, so why not it's other magical powers?
#2 No, I did not miss the point. I don't see Focus Spells as being made irrelevant as you level. Most of them are relevant throughout leveling, with "higher level" focus spells generally being side grades since they all cost the same amount of resource. Augment Summoning has a very different use than Dimensional Steps.
Your point is moot.
#3 Okay, so a Living Monolith casts Enlarge on themselves. I cast a 5th level Dispel Magic on that character. How do I resolve this?
We need spell levels and DC's to properly use these spells. It is unfortunate that Living Monolith does not specify these things.
For my part, I would like some sort of scaling, even if it isn't 1 for 1 with character level. Perhaps base it on the scaling of the Ka Stones Death effect bonus? So 8th level your spells count as 4th level, and 14th level they count as 7th?
beowulf99:
#1 I don't disagree
#2 Not irrelevant but lower level ones become less relevant as higher level one come online. Monk is a perfect example of this: your ability to ki rush starts losing relevance once you can start teleporting [Abundant Step] or flying [Wind Jump] or go ethereal [ethereal jaunt]. So not moot.
#3 Error, value not found; does not compute. I already said there is no way to figure out level and that's required for Counteract. As to scaling, that would have to be specifically included in the text as magic items don't get auto-heightened but instead get specific set levels. I don't personally think it needs scaling, but it wouldn't upset me if it did: if it's an item with a heightened spell in it, I don't think the user can lower it so an auto-heightened enlarge means at 8th level, making sure your huge form can fit where you active it.
beowulf99:
#2 Not irrelevant but lower level ones become less relevant as higher level one come online. Monk is a perfect example of this: your ability to ki rush starts losing relevance once you can start teleporting [Abundant Step] or flying [Wind Jump] or go ethereal [ethereal jaunt]. So not moot.
#3 Error, value not found; does not compute. I already said there is no way to figure out level and that's required for Counteract. As to scaling, that would have to be specifically included in the text as magic items don't get auto-heightened but instead get specific set levels. I don't personally think it needs scaling, but it wouldn't upset me if it did: if it's an item with a heightened spell in it, I don't think the user can lower it so an auto-heightened enlarge means at 8th level, making sure your huge form can fit where you active it.
What about Ki Strike? Does that lose relevance? Protective Ward? Lay on Hands? Counter Performance? Just because you gain access to new tools does not mean that your "old" tools don't serve their purpose. Largely, each Focus Spell does a very specific thing. For instance, Ki rush doesn't just let you move farther than Abundant Step, it also makes you Concealed. Quite handy to make an escape or buy yourself time to heal. Abundant Step is limited to 15 feet, and using Ki rush you can move much farther than Wind Jump, you just don't fly during the movement. Double Stride as a part of casting the spell, then the option to make 2 more strides if you want beats 2 or 3 if hasted flying strides for sheer movement.
And standard spells can be just as useful from a Spellcasting class now that they use Class DC rather than having their own DC based on their level. If anything, spells and abilities stay relevant longer in this edition than in PF1. Possibly staying relevant for the entire game. So yeah, your point is very moot.
#3: And that was the point of my post. In lieu of an official answer, it will be up to any GM that allows a Living Monolith character to figure out what Spell Level and DC these spells use. I merely posted my preferred method, having them scale with either Player Level or, if that feels too strong, with your Ka Stone Ritual's Death Effect and negative effect save bonus.
I never said that this is the intended use. Just that these seem the most fair.
You could also base it on the number of Living Monolith Feats that you gain.
That doesn't address Zone of Truth needing a DC, for that I would say it would be fair to use a level based DC, based on the level of the Living Monolith. Otherwise, that component of that 12th level feat will become quickly useless.
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What about Ki Strike?
I'm getting the idea that you're not understanding what I'm putting down... You're looking at absolutes and I'm talking tenancies. I said "it doesn't see odd to me that a 4th level feat might not be as relevant as you grow" means that the higher the level of your focus spells the more powerful it tends to be, hence making it stronger. Less relevant isn't losing all relevance: ie irrelevant. For instance, ki rush might be better in a specific situation but generally teleport or fly come in handier at higher levels where you have tougher challenges than running fast. Your 'go to focus' spell you got at 1st is less likely to be so when you get a 16th level one. For instance, do you ki strike or Quivering Palm: just the fact that you have more options means it loses some relevance.
Maybe you're quibbling over the word relevance itself? Less relevance doesn't mean useless or unneeded but that it's less of a factor to your character: when you only have 1 focus spell, you'll use one every chance you can and it's the most relevant it can be: Once you get more it becomes less so as you only sometimes use it. It's like a wizard that knows 50 spells: any one of them is less relevant to the overall character than one when he only had 5: it's a much more impactful option then then when you have 10 times more options to pick from. It might be SUPER useful at the right time but it has less overall effect to the character as a whole.#3: And that was the point of my post.
I don't know that I ever disputed anything along those lines. It's just the OP was looking for a clarification on auto heightened and that's something I can answer: it doesn't as written and as long as there isn't a Counteract in play the spell can work. Others, less so without a way to figure out level.
As to how DM's could run it... I'm not sure that's a discussion to be had here: we're in the rules section of the boards and that seems like something for advice.
You 1000% missed the point: when you're casting from a limited pool, you're lower level abilities lose relevance. Are you going to use your focus for a 1st level focus spell or the 12th level one that's much stronger?
.
Who is missing what they are "putting down"? My point was that this sentiment is clearly wrong: Higher Level requirement does not mean a focus spell is inherently stronger than a lower one. It is all about the situation.As to whether my suggestions should go in advice, maybe. But the root of the thread definitely belongs in the Rules Discussion sub. And I daresay this wouldn't mark the first time someone proposed a house rule to make up for a rule that needs revision, now would it?
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Higher Level requirement does not mean a focus spell is inherently stronger than a lower one. It is all about the situation.
Let me quote myself: "You're looking at absolutes and I'm talking tenancies." Add to that just having more options itself makes any individual option less relevant with a limit on usage. If you don't agree with this, I can't see any reason for further debate as we seem to be talking about different things and/or using different definitions for things.
this wouldn't mark the first time someone proposed a house rule to make up for a rule that needs revision, now would it?
It having happened in the past doesn't make it the correct thing to do: telling a cop you go 100mph all the time isn't going to convince a cop to rip up a ticket.
"For discussion of rules, including how a rule works, if a rule exists, or why a rule exists or doesn't exist."
how a rule works: it mostly doesn't
if a rule exists: well we know it does but see the above answer.
why a rule exists or doesn't exist: Can say i can see anything here.
After some thought it should be Homebrew
"For discussion related to adding, changing, or ignoring official rules and other non-official content." It's clearly be adding rules not in place.
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I'm guessing the spell is cast with the spell level of the item level of the Ka Stone.
But I can see cases for both:
1) The Ka Stone's item level is your level
and
2) The Ka Stone's item level is the minimum level needed to cast the relevant spell.
Higher Level requirement does not mean a focus spell is inherently stronger than a lower one. It is all about the situation.Let me quote myself: "You're looking at absolutes and I'm talking tenancies." Add to that just having more options itself makes any individual option less relevant with a limit on usage. If you don't agree with this, I can't see any reason for further debate as we seem to be talking about different things and/or using different definitions for things.
I will happily agree to disagree on this. I don't see lower level abilities as losing relevance in this edition. As I said before, in many cases abilities stay relevant throughout a campaign, which is one of the best parts of this edition.
this wouldn't mark the first time someone proposed a house rule to make up for a rule that needs revision, now would it?It having happened in the past doesn't make it the correct thing to do: telling a cop you go 100mph all the time isn't going to convince a cop to rip up a ticket.
"For discussion of rules, including how a rule works, if a rule exists, or why a rule exists or doesn't exist."
how a rule works: it mostly doesn't
if a rule exists: well we know it does but see the above answer.
why a rule exists or doesn't exist: Can say i can see anything here.After some thought it should be Homebrew
"For discussion related to adding, changing, or ignoring official rules and other non-official content." It's clearly be adding rules not in place.
Good luck snipping out my replies to a thread and moving them to Homebrew.
How a rule works: It doesn't as printed. Tough Luck.
If a Rule Exists: It technically does. See above answer.
Why a rule exists or doesn't exist: This bit is important. It leaves the Rules Discussion open to theory.
I was simply providing anyone who discovered the awkward state of Living Monolith an option to use that doesn't make their decision, possibly long made, feel like a bad one.
Keeping Archetype abilities relevant is important, especially for something as cool as Living Monolith. If your character is built upon an Archetype that is fundamentally broken, you should have some idea of how to make it seem interesting.
Honestly gray, it feels more like you are replying to me to be pedantic than to actually address the topic at hand.
OP asked how something works. My first post in this thread pointed out that it doesn't and offered gasp advice as to how you could make the rule work while you wait for errata.
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Good luck snipping out my replies to a thread and moving them to Homebrew.
Dude, I'm just pointing out that when things start moving to houserules, it's at least good etiquette to move to the correct part of the site. I NEVER suggested you'd need to remove anything from here, just that if you plan to keep talking about it, there are better places to do so.
Honestly gray, it feels more like you are replying to me to be pedantic than to actually address the topic at hand.
I'm feeling the same way to be honest: how relevant focus spells are isn't directly related to the issue at hand, but you keep posting a comment I made about it. Then you make a big deal about a simple comment that houserules might actually be better off in the section ABOUT houserules... *shrug* If you feel I'm not addressing the issue at hand, don't reply to me and I'll do the same.
Just to chime in with an opinion here, I broadly agree with graystone on the actual rules discussion and 100% agree that the derailed part of the thread probably belongs in a different forum.
As to the OP in a game I was GMing the answers would be.
No, it doesn't heightened as it doesn't mention anything about hightening in the ability.
For counteracting purposes, I'd say use your class DC and be done with it.