PF2 Bonus Fire Damage Questions for Sorcerer

[M1C4A3L]

I am currently leveling a Goblin Sorcerer (elemental - Fire Bloodline - (Primal)

I am looking for how the following interact -

Goblin Ancestry: Burn It! (BI!) : p48
Sorcerer Feat lvl 1: Dangerous Sorcery (DS) p198
Elemental (BM): p197
Staves (592)
Wands (597)

Things I know and Suspect:
() (BI!) and (DS) are both status bonuses, so you would only take the highest bonus for a given qualifying condition ;

()(BI!) specifies all spells and alchemical items (not other items such as staves), so it should apply to cantrips as well - whereas (DS) specifies spell slots. Burn It is fire damage only, while (DS) is all non duration elements.

() Since (BI!) is 1/2 spell level, but (DS) is full spell level; Where (DS) applies, it will be a better status bonus than (BI!).

()Elemental (BM) only applies to the spells you receive from the bloodline, but that includes the cantrip produce flame - since it is marked as a part of the asterisk, as well as burning hands, fireball, etc
Since it specifies either a self buff or a single target to take damage, I suspect its a separate (non status bonus) effect. ex. Produce Flame strikes a target, and I could apply Elemental (BM) to affect a separate target or the same target.

p592 Entry on staves seem to suggest the staff is almost a focus, and that the character casts the spell (makes sense as you already have to know the spell) - but also says it "can be affected by any modifications you can normally make while casting spells, such as meta magic feats". The Section on wands makes no such specifics to modifications, but does say "because you are the one casting the spell, use your attack roll and spell DC."
This suggests that things you could do should still apply to these spells, if all conditions are met. This suggests that (BI!) and (BM) may still apply to staves and wands, but since (DS) is linked to actually expelling a spell slot, it would not apply to staves and wands. It would then follow, that expending a spell slot and using charge(s) of the staff would fulfill the conditions of applying (DS) since you have spent the spell slot.
(Note: it seems really redundant for spontaneous spellcasters to expend spell slots of spells they could already cast and charges from a staff, but I understand the application of higher level non-signature spells being able to be 'heightened' by this method appropriately)

Example Assumptions: Lvl 3 goblin sorcerer - with Burn It ancestry, (DS) feat, Elemental Primal Fire bloodline, Just got his new Staff of Fire lvl 3. CHA 18 - +4 Mod Spell AR +9 ; DC 19 Cantrip lvl 2;
Bloodline Spells include Produce Flame and Burning Hands, the same as provided by the staff.

1st question: If (DS) and (BI!) both apply to a cast spell, (DS) has a bigger bonus and can/should be used, but could you also apply (BI!) to the +1 persistent Damage to that spell?

(I believe this question is entirely theoretical, as (DS) requires spell slots to be used, but there are no spell slot spells that deal persistent fire damage (Cantrips only), and wand of fireball does have persistent fire damage but doesn't qualify for (DS) for not burning a spell slot)

2nd question: Is casting 'from the staff' v casting originally considered:
(BM)? (suspect Yes)
(BI!) (suspect Yes)
(DS) (suspect No, unless spell slot expended)

3rd question: is casting 'from a wand' v casting originally considered:
(BM)? (maybe? if you have to supply components? but I don't think so)
(BI!) (suspect maybe, since its still 'your spell')
(DS) (No - No spell slot spent)

4th question: does (BI!) apply bonus damage to wands? would this include the persistent damage on the wand of smoldering fireballs?

Current Understanding:
Above lvl 3 sorcerer casts Burning Hands from his spell Slot:
Deals 2d6 fire damage plus 1 status bonus (as lvl 1 spell, (BI!) and (DS) both are +1) ; ((BM) Trips, allowing him to gain either +1 Intimidation or single target to take 1 fire dmg)

Above lvl 3 Sorcerer casts Burning Hands (H+1) from his spell slot, as signature spell:
Deals 4d6 fire damage, plus 2 (DS) > (BI!), (BM) Trips.

Casts burning hands with a staff charge:
2d6 +1 fire damage (BI!)
Casts burning hands with a staff charge and 2nd spell slot:
4d6 +2 fire damage (DS)

[Gary Bush]

These Are not society specific questions. I am flagging to have it moved to the PF2 rules area as that is a better place to get answers.

[Sam Phelan]

Moved to PF2 Rules Questions

[Goldryno]

Hey looks like you have thought a lot about the rules and the character build. Some of this may cross into "whatever the GM allows" territory but I will do my best to help you out!

1.) Yes I believe both DS and BI! could theoretically apply to the same spell. Since in that example we are never stacking two different status bonuses on the same effect I believe the rules are working as intended in applying DS status bonus to the normal damage and BI! bonus to persistent damage.

2.) The entry for BM Reads: "Blood Magic Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using Focus Points or a granted spell from your bloodline using a spell slot, you gain a blood magic effect." So you're running into the spell slot restriction once more and there is no method to count focus point spells through a staff that I know of.
BI! would work and DS would not just as you assumed.

3.) Same thing as #2. Whether it a staff or a wand you are still casting a spell from an item. Or as the rules put it "activating the item with a Cast a Spell activity"

4.) I would allow it. Their can be some quibbling about whether something cast from an item is still your spell but I believe that is being over nit-picky. If an alchemical item is a close enough connection to have it apply I believe that a wand is a valid candidate to work with that feat

[M1C4A3L]

Goldryno wrote:

Hey looks like you have thought a lot about the rules and the character build. Some of this may cross into "whatever the GM allows" territory but I will do my best to help you out!

1.) Yes I believe both DS and BI! could theoretically apply to the same spell. Since in that example we are never stacking two different status bonuses on the same effect I believe the rules are working as intended in applying DS status bonus to the normal damage and BI! bonus to persistent damage.

2.) The entry for BM Reads: "Blood Magic Whenever you cast a bloodline spell using Focus Points or a granted spell from your bloodline using a spell slot, you gain a blood magic effect." So you're running into the spell slot restriction once more and there is no method to count focus point spells through a staff that I know of.
BI! would work and DS would not just as you assumed.

3.) Same thing as #2. Whether it a staff or a wand you are still casting a spell from an item. Or as the rules put it "activating the item with a Cast a Spell activity"

4.) I would allow it. Their can be some quibbling about whether something cast from an item is still your spell but I believe that is being over nit-picky. If an alchemical item is a close enough connection to have it apply I believe that a wand is a valid candidate to work with that feat

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense -

I realize I didn't separate this thought out into is own question but,

5) If you use the sorcerer ability to cast a spell from a staff, while spending a spell slot to feed the staff, would DS apply?
(again, maybe as a way of heightening a non-signature spell to a higher level, since Major Staff of Fire allows Fireball spell at 4th and 5th levels, requiring you to only expend a 4th or 5th level spellslot, but not have to know the heightened fireball spell specifically)

[M1C4A3L]

Gary Bush wrote:

These Are not society specific questions. I am flagging to have it moved to the PF2 rules area as that is a better place to get answers.

Thank you,

I will read up on the forum to ensure future inquiries are posted in the correct locations

[Goldryno]

No problem! For question #5....

"Source Core Rulebook pg. 592
A spontaneous spellcaster, such as a bard or sorcerer, can reduce the number of charges it takes to Activate a staff by supplementing with their own energy. When a spontaneous spellcaster Activates a staff, they can expend 1 charge from the staff and one of their spell slots to cast a spell from the staff of the same level (or lower) as the expended spell slot."

Judging by the language they use in that entry you are still activating/casting from the staff. Even though you are consuming a spell slot you are not casting from that spell slot. You are just expending the slot to create an effect of the appropriate level. Because of this I would say that Dangerous Sorcerey would not apply here either. Basically Dangerous Sorcerey will only apply if the base origin of where the spell is coming from is one of your spell slots, regardless of whether or not spell slots get involved later on in the equation.