As much as I die to hanzo or a well placed shot from widowmaker, that takes skills (especially hanzo) and if you get close, they're toast. Bastion to a lesser degree, but he's vulnerable and stuck in place. Range doesn't matter to the turrent: if you're inside it, it does more damage to you than you do to it.
Gonna do some research on damage numbers for this game tonight just to settle this one way or another. To whoever figured up rough DPS numbers earlier: Did you take into account refire rate and any potential damage fall-off?
Not a "single corridor" problem either. You'll notice Hanamura was used as an example of when Torbjorn can destroy the enemy team. There are at least five different entry points in the second defense point on that map and turrets can cover all of them. Why? The range. Like we've been saying.
So is there no delay between it locking on and firing or something? It doesn't need to turn around to shoot you?
There's no delay to lock on, turn or reload. Enemies will take damage as soon as the turret has line of sight on them within 40 meters. Other characters/turrets do not block line of sight.
Edit: Corrected "40 feet" to 40 meters. Pathfinder leaked in a bit there.
Ahhhhh, should have led with that. The DPS is weak, so I was wondering what the issue was since everyone was just saying "the range".
So it just deals damage to every character within 40 meters simultaneously with no window of opportunity to exploit? That does seem pretty bad.
That (for roughly the hundredth time, though to a different audience in this case) is a problem with map design, not character design.
A good map has multiple routes to go through, so you can flank the enemy and take out their turrets and other stationary defenses.
To continue the TF2 comparisons, it's not that the Demoman is overpowered, it's that Dustbowl's straight hallways, cramped spaces, and few routes is hilariously bad map design. Change the map to something actually GOOD (like Badwater), and that overwhelming power disappears.
Maps with no routes are an Engineer-type and any spam class' wet dream.
I'd be willing to bet there are huge issues with classes like Hanzo and Pharah on maps like that as well, single corridors where projectiles can be spammed ad infinitum to create a wall of death.
Actually, there is an entire game type designed around those maps called Payload. There is some moveable object, the payload, that needs to be escorted. The maps are, essentially, a single route that has twists and turns and some side alleys, but mostly just the main route. Truthfully speaking,, nearly all the maps are that way, very obvious direct paths for players to follow. The objectives are usually full Sith ripe locations for Torbjorn or Bastion to set up shop in. Good teams make it borderline impossible to flank them too.
In a coordinated team, Torbjorn is one of the backbones of the defensive line. Without the team to take pressure off his turret, he crumbles fast. But even then, f you've got one of his counters blah knows how to counter, you can still neutralize him pretty effectively unless your team is getting reamed.
Yes, Payload maps were in TF2 as well. But the good Payload maps (like the aforementioned Badwater, or Upward) had a few ways around Sentry Guns and the like, so even though the bomb cart can only go one way, the players are free to move around and remove obstacles.
Of course, for every Badwater, there's three Goldrushes. Chokepoint laden garbage where Engineer and Demoman rule supreme.
Torbjorn sounds like he's of a similar design philosophy as the Engineer. People get frustrated because it requires teamwork to take him diwn. "But it's broken that I need two characters to take down one guy", sort of missing the point: He is two characters himself.
I imagine he'll get some quality of life tweaks, this being Blizzard (who pop a boner at the word "patch"), and newer maps may remedy some of the issues.
Had an opportunity to play around around with soldier 76 and a turrent.
... i come around the corner and the things locked onto me instantly. At near max range its still dead on, instantly, all the time, and i can barely land a hit on it (his bullet spread pattern gets kinda wide at that range)
Trobjorn is no slouch himself either. His shots are slow but pretty damned accurate and hurt.
The idea is teamplay folks. You walk out with a Reinhardt or D.va soaking the shots and two attackers can blip the turret within a second...
Multiple Turrets can be killed by Genji with his deflection. You can tag the turrets around corners with Pharrah or Junkrat. Tracer's ult can kill a Molten Core turret if it's taken even a little damage.
I'd say 90% of attacker issues stems from people trickling in one by one and dying rather than falling back and regrouping as 6.
Torbjorn is a much easier problem to deal with than...say...a team with two decent supports. Or two high level McCrees.
Source: Im level 32.
Genji can only deflect attacks coming in front of him. Smart turret placement involves placing them from multiple spots. If Genji tries that, he'll either get killed instantly due to Torbjorns/turret flanks or will die after destroying one measly turret.
Pharah and Tracer can't get anywhere near the turrets because as I mentioned above, insta-death (Tracer especially with her 150 HP). Junkrat can do it if he can stay out of the turrets line of sight but that's often situational at best beyond maybe the first defense point in Hanamura.
Reinhardt and D.Va can handle one or two turrets sure, but six? Not a chance. Reinhardt's shield will go down insanely quick if the Torbjorn players are paying any attention and D.Va just gets shredded by the turrets since her deflect only blocks projectiles in front of her.
Source: Having fought and played with multiple teams of 6 Torbjorns, tried the Genji and Reinhardt tactic, saw 2 enemy D.Vas on one team get destroyed almost instantly and since we're apparently reciting levels, I'm level 54. D.Va's ultimate is about the only thing I've seen that has a hope of working and the advantage it provides is fleeting at best, especially since she can rarely get her ultimate due to the Torbjorn lock down.
Edited: To Adress your other points in your last post.
His degree of arc is pretty wide. I dont know many maps that have entry points where a turret could possibly be both directly in front of and behind Genji unless he's overextended.
But again, you wont find single player answers against a team tactic in a team based game. Get a couple D.vas/Reinhardts one or two supports and a good attacker. Pharrah can take out turrets in 3 shots even if Torbjorn is whackin it.
A damage amped Junkrat will do the trick easy as well. He can hit angles Pharrah cant hit easily though she can occassionally outrange the turrets.
His degree of arc is pretty wide. I dont know many maps that have entry points where a turret could possibly be both directly in front of and behind Genji unless he's overextended.
But again, you wont find single player answers against a team tactic in a team based game. Get a couple D.vas/Reinhardts one or two supports and a good attacker. Pharrah can take out turrets in 3 shots even if Torbjorn is whackin it.
A damage amped Junkrat will do the trick easy as well. He can hit angles Pharrah cant hit easily though she can occassionally outrange the turrets.
Genji's arc is wide yes, but it still doesn't extend directly to his side or behind. Only in front of him. Plenty of maps have positions for turrets to flank him; Hanamura, King's Row, Hollywood. Lots of positions for placement for the perceptive Torbjorn.
D.Va has the same problem as Genji, only deflects in front of her and then gets shredded. Reinhardt's shield doesn't last long versus the combined fire of the rivet guns and turrets and he can easily be flanked by Torbjorns or smart turret placement.
Junkrat will get insta-killed unless he remains outside of the turrets line of fire. He can bounce projectiles off of walls but will usually only be able to destroy two at most since the others will most likely be too far away/too out in the open. Pharah can sometimes be out of range of the turrets but due to the 40m range, that's often the exception and not the rule. Even worse, on a few maps you'll find turrets with cover from above! In all other situations apart from being out of range she'll get insta-killed.
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You're still thinking in singletons.
One person SHOULDN'T be able to take out 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. different characters.
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But an entire team should, and they can't. This isn't just theory, I have done this from both perspectives with co-ordinated teams.
I'm inclined to believe Scavion over you on what's possible. I've played and FPS with him before and he's pretty good. It falls in line with my own experience too, and what I've seen watching gameplay.
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I'm inclined to believe Scavion over you on what's possible. I've played and FPS with him before and he's pretty good. It falls in line with my own experience too, and what I've seen watching gameplay.
And I'm inclined to take your "experience" with a grain of salt considering you've never even played the game. And if your entire argument is that a team of uncoordinated players should require a hyper coordinated team to beat, well... I hope Blizzard doesn't feel the same...
From what you've described, the other team ISN'T uncoordinated. You have smart turret placement in places where their weaknesses are covered and they can cover multiple areas at once.
Smart turret placement is hardly the same as team coordination. Knowing the general layout of a map is enough for a team of 6 torbjorns to win. And the reason why weaknesses and multiple areas can be covered so eaily are due to reasons already outlined many times in this thread.
Smart turret placement is hardly the same as team coordination. Knowing the general layout of a map is enough for a team of 6 torbjorns to win.
In other words, they have better map knowledge, placement, and situational awareness than you do.
All factors that are as important (if not more so) in an objective based game as twitch aim skill.
Smart turret placement is hardly the same as team coordination. Knowing the general layout of a map is enough for a team of 6 torbjorns to win.In other words, they have better map knowledge, placement, and situational awareness than you do.
All factors that are as important (if not more so) in an objective based game as twitch aim skill.
Not what I said at all.
Smart turret placement is hardly the same as team coordination. Knowing the general layout of a map is enough for a team of 6 torbjorns to win. And the reason why weaknesses and multiple areas can be covered so eaily are due to reasons already outlined many times in this thread.
Ehhh, that still comes out as team coordination. Having a guy or turret in this case watching each entryway is still coordination. Fairly decent coordination tbh. Usually they end up doubling up in places/end up not completely optimal.
But I digress, even with 5 turrets pelting at Reinhardt's shield, that still gives your team 10 whole seconds to break turrets. If you have even a couple of decent attackers or even one with a damage amping Mercy behind him/her, you will tear down turrets fast.
And then there is the fact that Torbjorn is...slow. He takes forever to waddle back to the frontline so losing a torbjorn is incredibly painful since attackers can generally reinforce to their frontline faster.
You say Junkrat can take down two at most. Thats 2 out of 6 of their players whilst you're still maintaining 6. Junkrat is probably even still alive since his angles usually don't even require trading hits. With two turrets down, Pharrah can outrange/splash damage the turrets.
You get a sticky attacker behind their defense like Tracer and they won't be able to get back to the point without help. Reaper can flank from saferish areas. His shotguns tear turrets apart and the turrets don't do more damage the closer you are. Torbjorn has a bit of a fat hitbox that makes killing him faster for Reaper too.
Teams running more than one Bastion with support are usually more irritating than Torbjorn. Or a Bastion riding the cart backwards. "Oh yeah Genji completely counters him!" Maybe if he's an idiot more like. Can't count the times I've stared down a Genji looking like an idiot waving his deflection around while I wait to murder him.
The thing that blows the theoretical math away is that the player has to react in human time, accross the internet, and the turrent doesn't. It effectively locks on BEFORE you even get there and keeps hitting you even after you leave (according to your screen) So a player popping around the corner (or a reaper popping out of the ether) for a second gets about 3 seconds worth of damage
The thing that blows the theoretical math away is that the player has to react in human time, accross the internet, and the turrent doesn't. It effectively locks on BEFORE you even get there and keeps hitting you even after you leave (according to your screen) So a player popping around the corner (or a reaper popping out of the ether) for a second gets about 3 seconds worth of damage
You being ambushed and having a bad connection does not constitute a balance issue.
If someone surprises you, you SHOULD lose a fight. Their placement and strategy was better than yours.
The thing that blows the theoretical math away is that the player has to react in human time, accross the internet, and the turrent doesn't. It effectively locks on BEFORE you even get there and keeps hitting you even after you leave (according to your screen) So a player popping around the corner (or a reaper popping out of the ether) for a second gets about 3 seconds worth of damage
3 seconds is a long long time. I think you are equating what is more like a third of a second to be much longer than it actually is.
The Turrets won't even fire at Reinhardt's shield unless his character model comes around the corner. In actuality, all you have to do is hide by the wall and shield your allies.
And honestly as far as internet/lag/reaction times or what have you get heavily mitigated by not having a potato computer and internet service.
Turrets are static, it's easy to know exactly where they are. You are not locked into fighting the turret. It's appalling to me how difficult this is to understand to people.
Play Junkrat/Pharrah. Have a healer. Move as a group. The turret did 80 damage to you while Junkrat two shotted the turret with a Mercy Damage Amp.
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You being ambushed and having a bad connection does not constitute a balance issue.
Neither of those is happening. If you feel the need to make rude comments about things you know nothing about in order to feel superior, please don't.
If someone surprises you, you SHOULD lose a fight. Their placement and strategy was better than yours.
This is ridiculously nonsensical. Having a turrent with perfect 360 degrees of observation and instant locking on is by no stretch of the imagination "superior" placement.
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The Turrets won't even fire at Reinhardt's shield unless his character model comes around the corner. In actuality, all you have to do is hide by the wall and shield your allies.
37 levels, most of it on Reinhardt. This is ABSOLUTELY false. The turret loves to eat my shields.
Turrets are static, it's easy to know exactly where they are. You are not locked into fighting the turret. It's appalling to me how difficult this is to understand to people.
You are locked into fighting the turrent when its on an objective or a choke point.
the turrent is ALWAYS on an objective or a choke point.
Play Junkrat/Pharrah. Have a healer. Move as a group. The turret did 80 damage to you while Junkrat two shotted the turret with a Mercy Damage Amp.
And what is the rest of their team doing while you have half your team on one problem?
You being ambushed and having a bad connection does not constitute a balance issue.
Neither of those is happening. If you feel the need to make rude comments about things you know nothing about in order to feel superior, please don't.
If someone surprises you, you SHOULD lose a fight. Their placement and strategy was better than yours.This is ridiculously nonsensical. Having a turrent with perfect 360 degrees of observation and instant locking on is by no stretch of the imagination "superior" placement.
Clarification: This was largely directed to the comment about Reaper. And yes, if you are being shot while behind cover, that is a latency issue. Not a balance one.
The turret issue is a matter of you aporoaching an entrenched position and (seemingly) expecting to have some sort of advantage in an effectively 2 v 1 combat with a pair of foes in their strongest element.
I should copy-paste some old SPUF conversations at this point because none of your concerns are new, including the "What to do when multiple teammates are occupied by a turret" question. They come up in ANY team based game that involves classes and stuff like this. Team Fortress (Classic and Two), Battlefield, Planetside, Tribes, etc.
And yet people have always strategized and overcome the issue less than a year into their respective games' releases. At which point the Engineer style classes generally become next to useless.
I somehow doubt this will be the exception.
37 levels, most of it on Reinhardt. This is ABSOLUTELY false. The turret loves to eat my shields.
No it doesn't. If your shield is up but your character model is outside of sight of a turret, it will not fire on you. It'll lock on characters behind your shield in the open but at that point it doesn't really matter because 40 damage a shot is hardly anything against his 2000 hp barrier...
Well apparently the hypothetical situation is 6 torbjorns so I imagine they're hanging by their turrets or plinking away with their measly ranged damage against the shield.
If we're just talking about a single torbjorn the answer is super minimal. Pick Pharrah or Junkrat and break the turret around angles/splash damage.
Again all it requires is a Junkrat/Mercy combo to bring that whole team comp to shambles. The rest of the team just cleans up and maintains momentum. Heck if you push hard they won't even have time to set up.
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Having been on both sides of the 6-Torbjorn 'dwarf fortress,' it's not unbeatable. It requires a very precise level of teamwork- -because the other team is automatically working together. It's the type of strategy that chews through a handful of non-communicative randos.
When we got a group of coordinated attackers, however, we were able to fight through enough to make a game out of it.
Our team: Reinhardt, Zarya, Junkrat, Mercy, 2x Widow (but anything with good medium-long range damage would work).
The Reinhardt moves to where one turret has line, the Zarya and Mercy run interference while the Junkrat blows it up. The Widows concentrate on killing Torbjorns.
The problem with assaulting the dwarf fortress is that it requires teamwork and is boring. If you can keep your team on task long enough to execute a plan, it works.
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Blizzard recently updated Diablo 2 for use on modern Windows.Is that a downloadable version, and if so where can I get it?
I bought the treasure chest a few years ago, but it was still XP.Also, does anyone know how to fix a bug in Act II. Ever since Microsoft 7 did an upgrade 2 years ago, the game crashes every time I get to a certain point while looking for the black soul gem. I have reported this problem to Blizzard, but there has been no word or fixes. I have uninstalled the game and reinstalled it, but no joy.
I have the same problem with Torchlight 2 BTW.
Try patch 1.13 (I think that's the one).
It makes your game like the downloadable one. It means you don't need the disc to run the game, and it runs (or should) on Win 8.1/10 easily.
I've applied the patch, but haven't played DII recently to check it all out.
Sorry, I was talking about Diablo 3
Having been on both sides of the 6-Torbjorn 'dwarf fortress,' it's not unbeatable. It requires a very precise level of teamwork- -because the other team is automatically working together. It's the type of strategy that chews through a handful of non-communicative randos.
A quick play group is a herd of cats, not a swat team
Well good news Norse, they're nerfing Torb turrets by 30% of their damage on consoles. I personally don't see it as necessary and will find it very annoying to be much s!$!tier as Torbjorn, where I had no trouble keeping up with enemy Torbjorns, including the 6 Torb Dorf Fortress strategy, but it seems the community has spoken on how it feels. I expect to see Torb become a very low tier hero after the nerf.
Indeed. I'm only an above average layer myself, but I have no trouble shutting down Torbjorn as Widowmaker, Hanzo, or Pharah. Hell, as Widowmaker or Hanzo, I can shut down 3 Torbjorns at once if they are close enough together.
People just refuse to switch to one of his counters. It's aggravating, because when people complained about Bastion being Op, Blizzard told them to pick a counter to him, essentially saying, "Git Gud."
Wish they had down the same with Torbjorn. If they're had opted to nerf turrets range, or its target acquisition speed, I wouldn't have cared, but his damage was fine.
I was going to say the same about the upcoming update: Reddit
Having also been on both sides of the Torb battles (and not just make Team Fortress comparisons), good coordination can win. But the problem is that a slip up and you can quickly wipe; the turret problem lays in that it is fairly unflinchable compared to other player classes damage spreads. As Jayson points out; the Torb combo with a healer or buffer and maybe a sniper is far worse because it will disrupt that planned attack very quickly. I've seen the swarm approach because the turret can't lock on to everyone at one time; but leaves your team vulnerable to a counterattack depending on your losses.
I'm not sure that the damage reduction was necessary - as Tels highlights - it really might have been better to:
a) reduce the turret range. It doesn't matter when you have even a Widowmaker or Hanzo at anything besides longer ranges because the turrets will find that player if they are in-sight. This problem lays in the fact that a smart application of the turret just around a corner or angled would cause a sniper to shift and they are wiped before they can refocus.
b)change the acquisition speed. One of the issues with the turret is that it becomes automated automatically and can pick-up any player instantaneously. Unless you know exactly where it is every time (maybe by liberal use of Hanzo's dragonsight), you can get caught off very quickly. This isn't a simple as map knowledge (there are enough places to hide a turret because it can be placed just about anywhere there's a flat surface) or getting ambushed or connection delays. This about an ability no other character has that places a human player at the mercy of the code/software - you aren't going to beat that as the game stands without support or multi-point attacks. Even a Bastion is still at the hands of a person and they can't know if someone is behind them automatically in a flanking attack.
c)alter the turrent's behavior if it's Torbjorn is eliminated. There's a real frustration in this element. I've seen Torb players get killed while their turret's continue to get multi-kills without them around to even patch them up. I've seen players get the "Play of the Game" while their Torb is still running back to the combat. Maybe people feel that's smart strategy, but it comes off as cheap tactic that requires less teamwork (for what is supposed to be a team-based game).
Also - is it just my experience - or has anyone else noticed that the turrets are not vulnerable to the AOE ultimates. I've seen Hanzo's dragon attack and Reinhardt's earthshaker affect all the opponents, but if there's a turret in the group it keeps pounding away. Junkrat's wheel and Genji's dragon sword will hit it though. If this rule is true, that also adds to the problem.
It is intentional that the turret is immune to some ultimates. Like D.Vas nuke or Hanzo's Dragonstrike. Really not sure why though.
Dva's nuke does actually destroy turrets. Shes usually my second go to when facing the dwarf fortress.
I've been playing OW since its earliest betas. If you're dying to Torb's turrets on a regular basis, that is a player skill problem. We all die to turrets sometimes because you can't always predict when/where they're going to be placed, but once you've seen it there is no excuse to dying to it a 2nd time.
Blizzard painstakingly reviews battle results, player feedback, and internal testing to keep things as balanced as possible.
Torb's turret is laughably easy to destroy with the overwhelming majority of the heroes. D.Va is the single best counter to the turret. Pharah, Widow, Hanzo, Mei, Genji, Zenyatta, Soldier and Ana all have powerful ranged attacks that will down a turret in 2-4 shots, safely from range. Tracer, Junkrat and Reaper have powerful attacks that can own the turret up close in about 1-2 seconds.
Every single map has long shots to take out most turret locations from a distance, and the few forced interactions with the turret (not able to be dealt with at a distance) are easily trumped with a shield and/or high focused damage.
The turret is a nice tool for a player who is good with it (by changing its position often to throw off attackers, and/or uses uncommon or tricky spots) or against players who haven't learned to deal with it, but it certainly isn't overpowered.