Thief with wizard dedication (vs fighter or sorcerer dedication?)

[Tomice]

Hi! I need some advice on a build.
Ancient elf, rogue/thief, wizard dedication on level 1.
18 dex, 16 int, all other attributes 10 (con flaw neutered), 2 increases left
Main weapons: rapier and a set of daggers (for spontaneous throwing), maybe shortswort and shortbow as a backup.

Ancient elf (lost omens character guide, p25) is awesome because it's basically a free class feat for those who'd like to multiclass anyway.

My goal: extreme versatility and utility, ultimate skill-monkey-ness (almost all skills trained without wasting a skill increase!), still decent in melee and ranged combat.

My emotional preference would be 18dex, 16int, 14cha for being the party face and for "you're next" intimidation (all other stats 10).
Then again, boosting con or wis a bit is probably mechanically stronger.
______________________________

Questions:

1) Action economy!
Ideally, I'm already in flanking position at the start of the turn. Then I'd strike with my rapier and follow with electric arc (no multi-attack penalty).
Alternatively, I could attack with twin feint to set up the sneak attack and use the third action for the shield cantrip.
Any further suggestions or pitfalls?

2) Attributes:
You suggestions? I guess I'll always want 18 dex, but what about the rest?

3) Mechanical question:
With the wizard dedication, I'm still able to get any spell I want for my spellbook, I only suffer from few spell slots, right? But the versatility is there?
Can you learn all cantrips later on (not possible in D&D 5e, but should be possible here?)
Heightening spells has no prerequisites, right? Will this also allow me to create scrolls (which requires you to have the same spell ready 4 times IIRC?)

4) Comparison to fighter dedication:
My gut tells me that thief+fighter is the stronger combo, but I'm not yet good enough at this ruleset to judge myself - thoughts?

5) Comparison to sorcerer dedication:
While the sorcerer dedication would allow me to keep INT low and focus on CHA, it would suffer greatly from extremely limited spells known if I read the rules right? There is basically no way to swap spells because I just know 1 per slot?

[The Ronyon]

5)Arcane Sorcerer with Arcane evolution?
4)You will already get combat tricks with Rogue,a casting dedication seems likely to add more flexibility.
3)?
2)?
1)I was going to suggest a whip for reach, especially if your Athletics is good,but it looks like Rogues are not proficient.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Things to keep in mind:
A) With a 10 Strength, A Rapier and a Short Bow will eat up a large chunk of your carrying capacity: Even with the (extremely helpful) errata on the Backpack and waterskin, you are not going to have a lot of room for repair kits, med kits, climbing kits, or anything of that sort. Personally, I've found the shortsword to be the 'weapon of choice' on my thief, and he still doesn't have more than 1 bulk of spare capacity.

B) Dedications are really expensive for Rogues if you intend to take any of the follow-up feats: Past level 4, Rogues get a lot of (in my opinion, at least) really good class feats, and sacrificing one of them for a dedication feat is probably a tough call at best:
Level 6:
Gang Up - seems essential to me.
Light Step - would probably be one of my top picks if Gang Up weren't so good.
Level 8:
Opportune Backstab - Hard to beat an extra attack each round.
Sidestep - Very situational, but it's always nice when your opponents beat each other up.
Level 10:
Precise Debilitation - basically two extra Sneak Attack dice
Sneak Savant - turning failures into successes is great if you intend to sneak a fair deal.

I can't speak for all classes*, but at least for rogues, it seems to me that you give up a lot when you take a dedication feat instead of a class feat. Personally, I took the Cleric Dedication at level 2, but I don't see myself taking any of the followup feats.

*I know our party's fighter recently had an issue where none of the feat options were good for his polearm weapon use (either required a pre-req he didn't have, a weapon type he wasn't using, a free hand, or a shield).

[Captain Morgan]

Remember, you get 4 boosts every 5 levels, so you can boost another stat in addition to Dex, int, and Cha.

[Tomice]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

B) Dedications are really expensive for Rogues if you intend to take any of the follow-up feats: Past level 4, Rogues get a lot of (in my opinion, at least) really good class feats, and sacrificing one of them for a dedication feat is probably a tough call at best:
...

Thank you for the valuable advice!

Thinking about it, the opportunity cost varies wildly:
1) The dedication itself gives you 2 exchangeable cantrips + trained proficiency for them. it also lets you use scrolls and wands to cast higher-level spells - this seems to be awesome, especially if you get it "for free" as part of your race.
2) the basic spellcasting feat initially only gives you a meager 1st level slot, no extra proficiency - not very appealing, at least until lvl 8 when you get a spell slot for the levels 1-3.
3) expert and master spellcasting feats increase your proficiency and give you higher-level slots. They feel a bit more meaty due the proficiency boost.
4) Arcane breadth gives you a second slot for the levels 1-6, but you only get the full 6 slots on level 20, which makes it only useful on very high levels IMO

It might be best to just take the initial dedication feat for cantrips and scrolls, though your proficiency will be lacking, and it blocks you from taking the fighter dedication...

[Castilliano]

I agree the Wizard dip is worthwhile. And I think taking the whole chain of spellcasting feats would be necessary to use spellcasting offensively since it'd give you the proficiency and more slots, except that doesn't pay off until high levels.
What is your PC going to do in combat in the meantime?
It can't survive melee w/ 8 h.p./level & 10 Con and it'd burn through its scrolls & wands too fast in most economies. Is another PC making enemies flat-footed for your PC to use ranged? Will your PC be sneaking?

It seems in the effort for maximum skills & utility, you've neglected surviving battle. If using published material, your PC will die (or cause others to die). Cantrips w/ Sneak Attack (at 4th w/ feat) would barely suffice.

A. I would only take the dip, as the cantrips, skill, & unlocking consumables is useful.
B. If only dipping, I'd avoid offense w/ spells. -2 to spell attack or saves is an invisible & steep penalty (about 1/3 less damage w/ standard crit effects).
C. Rogues already overload on skills so unless going for Int-guru (or still wanting to use magic offensively), I'd drop Int to where it'll reach 18 w/ later boosts. Then you can bump up Con to survive.
D. If playing w/ a stable group, I'd check to see if there's another face before bumping Cha. It's still worthwhile to take Trained in face skills, especially w/ how many skills you'll get.

This is all if you want a Rogue who dabbles in magic items (and for utility/defense rather than offense). If enamored w/ the idea of a Rogue/spellcaster (especially blaster), then Wizard w/ Rogue MCD would be more useful. It'd still be able to get most of the skills and do Roguish deeds, just not be as stabby.
Trying to be both a stabber & blaster (while a super skill monkey AND face) will stretch your PC too thin.

Oh, and don't worry about not being proficient in a whip for combat maneuvers since those are skill checks w/ no penalties for lack of proficiency in the weapon used to perform them. Odd, but true for now.

[Tomice]

Castilliano wrote:

It seems in the effort for maximum skills & utility, you've neglected surviving battle. If using published material, your PC will die (or cause others to die).

You've looked right through me :)

For me, creating a d20 character means looking for loopholes to somehow become good at everything, usually neglecting basic offense and defense in the process (hoping that tricks and versatility will somehow save my posterior body parts).

Ironically, your wise words helped me to go even crazier with minmaxing - a rogue/druid multiclass with animal companion could help with both survivability and flanking, while offering very similar benefits regarding utility cantrips, scrolls and possibly spellcasting.
Additionally, it helps with will saves and perception through better wisdom. And it makes for a much better secondary healer.

Gotta think this through, maybe I'll open another thread for this build, because its quite different.

[Castilliano]

Tomice wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

It seems in the effort for maximum skills & utility, you've neglected surviving battle. If using published material, your PC will die (or cause others to die).

You've looked right through me :)

For me, creating a d20 character means looking for loopholes to somehow become good at everything, usually neglecting basic offense and defense in the process (hoping that tricks and versatility will somehow save my posterior body parts).

Ironically, your wise words helped me to go even crazier with minmaxing - a rogue/druid multiclass with animal companion could help with both survivability and flanking, while offering very similar benefits regarding utility cantrips, scrolls and possibly spellcasting.
Additionally, it helps with will saves and perception through better wisdom. And it makes for a much better secondary healer.

Gotta think this through, maybe I'll open another thread for this build, because its quite different.

Not that crazy. I made a 14th level one in the playtest! :)

Being able to start at 14th meant the spell feats had come to fruition (quite useful!), and while I thought the animal would be helpful, I spent a good deal of time struggling to keep it alive (more than the time it spent helping my PC!). A full Druid w/ Heal & Heal Animal plus an animal one feat better might not have so many issues, but the experience turned me off of ACs, at least in normal to tough adventures.
Much better to take Gang Up if worried about flanking, though I don't actually worry about that (at least not enough to spend a feat). In an extended dungeon crawl w/ tight corridors I might take it.
And yes, having so many skills & skill feats was glorious! Hard not to make Rogues for PCs that don't rely on specific mechanic(s) a Rogue can't get.

[Xomenin]

I also thought in this build and it is utterly versatile and strong. But you have to know your role. Melee rogues are just not safe in my opinion. You're a glass cannon. You'll hit hard from behind, when someone get to you, just run or fight running. With this build, nobody will even bother to chase you.

CLASS FEATS

L1- Nimble Dodge/You're Next
L2- Mobility (this will save you over and over).
L4- Basic Wizard Spellcasting
L6- Magical Trickster.
L8- Arcane Breadth.
L10- Precise Debilitation
L12- Expert Wizard Spellcasting

BEST BUFF SPELLS TO THIS BUILD
LVL1) Fleet Step (stacks with Mobility, run fast w/ no AOOs).
LVL2) Invisibility (they have to search for you, find you, then hit you with 50% miss chance).
LVL2) Mirror Image (you'll have 3 images for them to waste attacks).
LVL3) Haste (you can strike 3 times then sneak in your last action).

SPECIAL SECRET COMBO, YOU'LL NEED:
Shocking Grasp (lvl 1 spell hits 2d12+1d12 per heighten).
Magical Trickster (lvl 4 rogue feat: adds sneak attack into your Shocking Grasp).
Spectral hand (lvl 2 spell, can deliver touch spells, like shocking grasp at the confort of 120ft range).

So...

AT YOUR POWERSPIKE, AT LVL 12, YOU SHOULD:

Turn 1: Greater Invisibility -> Sneak.
Turn 2: Haste -> Strike -> Stride/Sneak.
Turn 3A (Not being chased or already buffed):
Shocking Grasp -> Strike -> Stride/Sneak.
Turn 3B (Being chased): Keep buffing, strike and running
(Mirror Image, Fleet Step, Spectral Hand etc.)

-You hit up to 3d8+5d6 with a Longbow.
-You hit up to 4d12+5d6 with a Shocking Grasp lvl3.

Thats too much damage for your distance, believe me.

ANCESTRIES (MIX UP IDEAS BELLOW)

1)ELVEN WEAPON ANCESTRY: you can use a Shortbow or use your Elven Weapon Ancestry to get Longbow proficiency (you can get more use of distance and also gives more damage, I would recommend it).
2)ADOPTED ANCESTRY: in Halfling to take Halfling Luck and Guiding Luck, reasons:
-You are the party crafter (lots of skills and high INT), and this will help you never failing on your duty.
-Also, will save you from the worst saves or making an important shot hit.
3)RUNNING: otherwise, boost yourself with Nimble Elf (Ancestry) + Fleet (General Feat). With 10 extra movement speed, you're faster than most (40ft). With fleet-step, you can keep big distances while sniping people, or just choose to run from any fight. You'll run 70 per action (with Swift Sneak you'll be sneaking all this movement).

SKILL FEATS
-I recommend: Swift Sneak, Foil Senses, Kip Up, Magical Crafting, Cat Fall, Inventor, Battle Medic and whatever you show up.