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It seems in the effort for maximum skills & utility, you've neglected surviving battle. If using published material, your PC will die (or cause others to die).

You've looked right through me :)

Ironically, your wise words helped me to go even crazier with minmaxing - a rogue/druid multiclass with animal companion could help with both survivability and flanking, while offering very similar benefits regarding utility cantrips, scrolls and possibly spellcasting.
Additionally, it helps with will saves and perception through better wisdom. And it makes for a much better secondary healer.

Gotta think this through, maybe I'll open another thread for this build, because its quite different.

B) Dedications are really expensive for Rogues if you intend to take any of the follow-up feats: Past level 4, Rogues get a lot of (in my opinion, at least) really good class feats, and sacrificing one of them for a dedication feat is probably a tough call at best:
...

Thank you for the valuable advice!

Thinking about it, the opportunity cost varies wildly:
1) The dedication itself gives you 2 exchangeable cantrips + trained proficiency for them. it also lets you use scrolls and wands to cast higher-level spells - this seems to be awesome, especially if you get it "for free" as part of your race.
2) the basic spellcasting feat initially only gives you a meager 1st level slot, no extra proficiency - not very appealing, at least until lvl 8 when you get a spell slot for the levels 1-3.
3) expert and master spellcasting feats increase your proficiency and give you higher-level slots. They feel a bit more meaty due the proficiency boost.
4) Arcane breadth gives you a second slot for the levels 1-6, but you only get the full 6 slots on level 20, which makes it only useful on very high levels IMO

It might be best to just take the initial dedication feat for cantrips and scrolls, though your proficiency will be lacking, and it blocks you from taking the fighter dedication...

Hi! I need some advice on a build.
Ancient elf, rogue/thief, wizard dedication on level 1.
18 dex, 16 int, all other attributes 10 (con flaw neutered), 2 increases left
Main weapons: rapier and a set of daggers (for spontaneous throwing), maybe shortswort and shortbow as a backup.

Ancient elf (lost omens character guide, p25) is awesome because it's basically a free class feat for those who'd like to multiclass anyway.

My goal: extreme versatility and utility, ultimate skill-monkey-ness (almost all skills trained without wasting a skill increase!), still decent in melee and ranged combat.

My emotional preference would be 18dex, 16int, 14cha for being the party face and for "you're next" intimidation (all other stats 10).
Then again, boosting con or wis a bit is probably mechanically stronger.
______________________________

Questions:

1) Action economy!
Ideally, I'm already in flanking position at the start of the turn. Then I'd strike with my rapier and follow with electric arc (no multi-attack penalty).
Alternatively, I could attack with twin feint to set up the sneak attack and use the third action for the shield cantrip.
Any further suggestions or pitfalls?

2) Attributes:
You suggestions? I guess I'll always want 18 dex, but what about the rest?

3) Mechanical question:
With the wizard dedication, I'm still able to get any spell I want for my spellbook, I only suffer from few spell slots, right? But the versatility is there?
Can you learn all cantrips later on (not possible in D&D 5e, but should be possible here?)
Heightening spells has no prerequisites, right? Will this also allow me to create scrolls (which requires you to have the same spell ready 4 times IIRC?)

4) Comparison to fighter dedication:
My gut tells me that thief+fighter is the stronger combo, but I'm not yet good enough at this ruleset to judge myself - thoughts?

5) Comparison to sorcerer dedication:
While the sorcerer dedication would allow me to keep INT low and focus on CHA, it would suffer greatly from extremely limited spells known if I read the rules right? There is basically no way to swap spells because I just know 1 per slot?

Thank you all for the great suggestions!
I guess my first char will be a bard.

A question remains: If I want a bard that can do decent at-will damage - is it better to use weapons or cantrips?

rainzax wrote:

Wait wait.

It's a Rogue feat.

Why does it not scale with Rogue class DC?

Because it doesn't say it does. It tells you what proficiency it gives you, which is Trained unless you have higher from another source.

Or do you mean why doesn't it from a game design point of view? Because then it would give you an automatic ranged attack that scales without gold costs, has better action economy AND is at your highest (likely) bonus. It would be borderline mandatory.

You may be right, the innate spell rules might make it too overpowered.

I'm new to Pathfinder2e and have spent quite a few hours browsing through options and learning the rules.
But I need help to build my first character - so many options, can't find a place to start!
It would be great if you guys could help me to create a viable concept.

I want to create a very versatile character, someone who always has a trick up his sleeve.

Must-have:
- Should be a caster (preferably full caster, but at least as archetype up to level 8 spells)
- Should be viable as a party face (at least somewhat)
- should have the most important skills to theoretically be able to adventure on his own (stealth, thievery, survival, medicine...)

What I like:
- elf, half-elf or human characters
- crowd control and blasting
- DEX+CHA based builds
- pulling off tricks, plotting, scheming
- chaotic good alignment
- at least some healing capability
- theoretically being able to "solo" easy adventures
- spontaneous casting

What I dislike:
- being reduced to a buffer/support role
- being just a skill monkey without any combat viability
- vancian/prepared casting

What I don't mind:
- if I use weapons or not (just need some way to contribute damage)

In the video game version of Pathfinder: Kingmaker (1e), I played an elven arcane trickster (rogue 1/wizard 3/ AT 10) with CHA as tertiary stat (would have preferred a sorc-based AT, but they are are a lot weaker).

I D&D 5e, my favourite build is lore bard 18 / warlock 2 (for Eldritch Blast)

I'm building a bard with rogue archetype/multiclass.
I want to use the rogue's minor magic to give the bard 2 basic attack cantrips (electric arc + produce flame).
The errata finally explains proficiency and key attribute for minor magic:

Rogue
Page 184: In Minor Magic, add the following sentence.
“Your key spellcasting ability is Charisma, and you’re
trained in spell attack rolls and DCs for the tradition of
your chosen cantrips.”

The problem:
It's neither specifically using the innate spell rules, nor does this seem to benefit from improvements to rogue class DC.

Does this mean there's no chance to ever increase the proficiency for those cantrips?

(To explain my thoughts further: innate spells like the cantrip you get from the "otherworldly magic" elf racial feat would scale with the proficiency increases you get for any casting class you have)