Class DC?

[Talsharien]

I am a little confused by the whole class DC thing. There are over 60 references to class DC in the core rulebook and it is also used by the critical deck.

I understand how it works as a 1st level character as this is explained on page 29 of the core rulebook, but how does it increase as your character goes up levels.

Do you automatically become expert, master etc at certain levels, and if so is this linked to your class abilities such as casting?

Any thoughts?

[masda_gib]

You are always at least Trained in your class DC if you have one. Trained is always level +2. That means, its value is:

Quote:

Class DC = 10 + (level + 2) + ability modifier

Your class dictates if and when you get higher proficiency in your class DC. If you look into the fixed features of the martial classes, you will find entries that improve your class DC. with higher proficiency the formula would be:

Quote:

Class DC = 10 + (level + 4/6/8) + ability modifier

[Baarogue]

Non spellcasters mostly have only a class DC, which is usually raised as they level. Read each class's advancement chart closely, because not all of them have a clear name like "suchandsuch expertise." For instance, Barbarians' first increase is called Mighty Rage at level 11.

Hybrids, like but not only the Bard and Champion, have both a class DC and a spellcasting tradition DC. Sometimes they increase at the same time, but they might not. Again, read the class advancement chart to find the relevant entries. Some aren't governed by the same abilities. I believe Rogues' spellcasting DC is based on Charisma? It's in the errata, which I don't have in front of me.

Pure spellcasters mostly have only a spellcasting tradition DC. For clerics, instead of the class advancement chart, their tradition DC is listed in their doctrines. Others are listead in their class advancement chart.

Mostly, usually, but not always (lol, ikr), the class DC's increases will be in their class advancement chart. All I can say is read carefully, and maybe make a cheat sheet for your own use. ^_^;;

[Talsharien]

Thanks for the input, that makes things a little clearer. As you suggested Baarogue, I think I would incorporate this into my existing cheat sheet for quick reference.

[Zapp]

To make this very clear, let's take an example.

The Fighter starts out trained in the Fighter class DC (page 141, bottom right corner). The Fighter's key ability is either Strength or Dexterity (same page, upper left corner).

So a level 1 fighter's class DC could be Strength modifier + 2 for Trained + 1 for level + 10 (all DCs add ten). For the sake of example, let's say this adds up to 17. So if the Fighter uses an ability involving the class DC, the enemy needs to roll a d20 and get 17 or better to succeed in resisting the fighter's ability.

At second level, this DC automatically increases to 18. It will keep increasing by one for each level.

At certain points, it will increase more than that. For example, when our Fighter gains Strength 20 instead of Strength 18, his Strength bonus increases by one, and since Strength is his chosen Key Ability, the DC increases by one.

And at level 11, the Fighter gains "Fighter Expertise" (page 143). At this stage you no longer add +2 for Trained; you add +4 for Expert.

You can expect your Fighter's class DC to easily double (from 17 to 34, say) as you level up.

[Zapp]

Every character has a class DC.

Even spellcasters. It's just that it isn't used for much, if anything.

So a Sorcerer, for instance, calculates her class DC just like the fighter. Except, of course, that her Key Ability isn't Strength or Dexterity - it's Charisma. And that nothing makes you trained in it.

So with a starting score of 18 Charisma, you will likely have a class DC of 10 + 4 = 14.

It will slowly raise throughout your career as you increase your Charisma, but will probably never even reach 20, much less 30 or 40. But that's not as bad as it looks, because it won't ever get used. (Spellcasters instead care about their Tradition DC)

[Talsharien]

Zapp you are a legend. That has just made that a lot clearer for me. The core rule stuff hasn't been an issue. It is when I am trying to incorporate the critical deck that I have stumbled slightly, as suddently you need the class DC for all characters.

It makes sense than non-casters would have a higher class DC in this context.

Thanks, you have just saved me numerous hours of ponderous thought and reflection :)

[Zapp]

Happy to help :)

[Eraden]

Thank you folks, for clarifying something for me. I purchased the Core Rulebook recently and has begun to experiment on creating characters. What got me stumped was the formula for Class DC. On page 29 there was a formula for Class DC but the variable "Proficiency Bonus" was not fully defined. Same thing for the listing for Class DC in the Appendix. I tried looking up "Proficiency Bonus" in the Appendix and only found "Proficiency". I sort of suspected that these two things were one and the same but I wasn't completely sure. You folks have helped clarify this for me and I am grateful for that. I just wish that those who wrote this manual would have included the COMPLETE definition and breakdown of Class DC in one location. It seems to be such an important number. It should have been fully defined and even given a delineating box to highlight it, when first described in the manual.

[Cordell Kintner]

Casters don't have a Class DC, they have a Spellcasting DC for their designated spellcasting tradition. Class DC is very similar, it just exists for those classes who don't get spellcasting.

This means if you were an Oracle with a Sorcerer dedication, and your Sorcerer tradition was Divine, all your Sorcerer spells would have the same Spell DC as your Oracle spells. Meanwhile, if you're a Barbarian with Rogue dedication, your Rogue skills would look at the Rogue DC while your Barbarian Skills would look at your Barbarian DC.

That said, it's fairly uncommon to have the same tradition, as the usual goal for a second casting class is to gain access to different spells.

Eraden wrote:

On page 29 there was a formula for Class DC but the variable "Proficiency Bonus" was not fully defined. Same thing for the listing for Class DC in the Appendix. I tried looking up "Proficiency Bonus" in the Appendix and only found "Proficiency". I sort of suspected that these two things were one and the same but I wasn't completely sure.

Proficiency Bonuses are described on page 13 of the CRB. It's used in almost every roll, so it's described in the fundamental rules.

[Ed Reppert]

One of the things I really like about the Harnmaster Gold* rules is how well organized they are.

* From Kelestia Games (kelestia.com).

[Castilliano]

As Cordell noted most casters don't have a Class DC (w/ Druids being an exception). For their powers that use Class DC, the ability will state to use their Spell DC instead, i.e. when a Warpriest gains a weapon's critical specialization effect. MCDs give Trained in the new Class for its DC. It doesn't advance further so abilities based on Class DC make poor choices.

Oddly, not all martial Class DCs advance at the same time, which must have some underlying purpose/balance that I'm unaware of.

[Cordell Kintner]

Castilliano wrote:

As Cordell noted most casters don't have a Class DC (w/ Druids being an exception). For their powers that use Class DC, the ability will state to use their Spell DC instead, i.e. when a Warpriest gains a weapon's critical specialization effect. MCDs give Trained in the new Class for its DC. It doesn't advance further so abilities based on Class DC make poor choices.

Oddly, not all martial Class DCs advance at the same time, which must have some underlying purpose/balance that I'm unaware of.

Another odd thing, even though Druids get a Class DC for no reason, it also never improves. I think it was just a Typo to give them a class DC.

[Ed Reppert]

As I understand it (if I understand it) when you make a check of some kind, you role against a difficulty class (DC). If you're making a strike, the DC is the armor class of the target. If you're attempting a save against a spell, the DC is the Spellcasting DC of the caster. And if you're attempting a save against some non-spell ability, the DC is the Class DC of the creature using the ability. If this is correct, my question is "what non-spell abilities of characters fit this model?" I looked through fighter for an example, and I couldn't find one. So either I missed it or them, or they're abilities described elsewhere than in the class description, or my understanding is flawed. I'd guess probably the last of those, but I don't know. I don't see anything that fits under Druid either. Anyone got a clue stick?

[Staffan Johansson]

Ed Reppert wrote:

As I understand it (if I understand it) when you make a check of some kind, you role against a difficulty class (DC). If you're making a strike, the DC is the armor class of the target. If you're attempting a save against a spell, the DC is the Spellcasting DC of the caster. And if you're attempting a save against some non-spell ability, the DC is the Class DC of the creature using the ability. If this is correct, my question is "what non-spell abilities of characters fit this model?" I looked through fighter for an example, and I couldn't find one. So either I missed it or them, or they're abilities described elsewhere than in the class description, or my understanding is flawed. I'd guess probably the last of those, but I don't know. I don't see anything that fits under Druid either. Anyone got a clue stick?

The first that comes to mind is critical specialization — some of the stronger critical specialization effects give the opponent a save vs your class DC to avoid.

There are also a number of abilities spread out around the place. Monks' stunning fist is one. Alchemists can take a feat that increases the save DC for various tools to their class DC.

[Ed Reppert]

Thanks, Staffan. I guess I'm not totally crazy. :-)

[shroudb]

Ed Reppert wrote:

Thanks, Staffan. I guess I'm not totally crazy. :-)

For Fighter, since you brought him up, Dazing Blow is one example.

Basically most (all?) martial abilities that impose a saving throw on the subject will be using the martial's class DC.