Gods for thieves

[Douglas Muir 406]

Looking for the following two deities:

1) A non-evil god/dess of thieves. Norgorber is evil, Besmara's really about pirates, Nimbi Rhombodazzle is close but she's a gnome and is really more about taking chances and living an interesting life. Is there one who would be a better fit as a deity for a dedicated, full-time career thief?

2) A good-aligned deity who is NOT actually a deity of thieves, but whose worshipper could be a full-time thief in order to accomplish some higher, better goal. Like, you join the local Thieves Guild and you actually steal stuff and whatnot for a while, because they're the only ones with the skills to find the evil artifact hidden beneath the city? I think this almost has to be a CG deity, yes? A worshipper of Desna could probably get away with it, but ehhh Desna's really obvious. Who else?

Suggestions welcome!

Doug M.

[Dave Justus]

Thieves is a big concept. For example, Cayden Cailean fits fairly well with a con-man, but not so much a burgler and probably not a mugger. Beyond that, people are complex things and there is a lot of room for different characters within the simplified alignment structure. Someone could worship Erastil, a believe a whole lot about what he talks about, but for reasons that seem good to him decide that thievery is the way to go. Beyond being complex, people are also great rationalizers. Lawful beliefs would limit most thievery, but probably less then Good ones would, and infiltrating a thieves guild and doing what you had to to maintain cover would be acceptable for quite a few moralities, as long as the need was great enough. The 'higher, better goal' is probably more significant then the willingness to partake of thievery as a means to that end.

For your first question, I would consider Khepri to be an interesting option, especially for a 'street trash' background.

[Secret Wizard]

Off the top of my head:

- Milani for rebellion, Robin Hoodism

- Andoletta for slum dwellers

This one I looked up cause I know someone used it before: Skrymir, a Giant God who values wit and challenges. Your thievery could be just to solve puzzles, rather than taking objects!

[deuxhero]

Making a living by stealing things is inherently either evil or, against very specific targets, chaotic. It's very weird for a good aligned character to think of themselves as a "thief" unless they're stealing from a tyrant and his underlings which outside of a campaign all about rebellion is very hard to make the central thing of a character. There's a reason D&D stopped calling the class "thief" by 3E.

For a deity that covers the domain of a thief's skills, there's Zohls, who covers detectives and spies that is LG. I'm sure one the Eldest has a chaotic deity that could fit too.

[Yure]

Worship Abadar and follow a dogmatic doctrine. That is that in a city or community everyone has their place. To include thieves and beggars whose nack for "acquiring" a small amount recycles into the economy, therefore keeping a healthy city. A city without downtrodden low income folk who make due turn into dissidents which riot against the government. As long as you don't kill for the main purpose of becoming richer, you should be alright.

To be honest it is all depending on your character concept more than anything. Is your rogue a really an agent for the government that works as a spy or covert agent?

[Douglas Muir 406]

What I'm getting here is that Golarion doesn't really have a single good god for thieves. I'm talking about your classic pickpocket / shoplifter / burglar type thieves here. Grifters and fancy con men are definitely included but only because they're a type of thief.

Where I'm going with this: if you've ever read _The Lies of Locke Lamora_ and its sequels? There's a character named Father Chains who is the priest of the God of Thieves. This god has his own theology and history, and he's got other stuff going on, but his main portfolio is, you got it, stealing things. The god values cleverness, skill and cunning, but only in the service of theft.

Father Chains was himself an accomplished thief. He's old now, so he's more of a trainer of promising young people with the occasional bit of grifting to keep his hand in. His duties include making offerings to the god (always a tithe from stuff that's been stolen, because that's the only acceptable sort of offering) and prayers for the souls of dead thieves, especially the ones that are captured and hung. There's a local Thieves Guild; they view him with awe and respect. Very occasionally he'll take a talented child as an apprentice.

Translated to D&D alignments, the god is probably CN and Father Chains might be CG -- he's stern but kindly, and very loyal. (Though we see him mostly through flashbacks from the main character, who is one of his surviving apprentices, and whose memories may be a bit rose-colored.)

Anyway, that's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Does it exist?

Doug M.

[avr]

There's no non-evil Golarion deity who's mainly about theft - for good reason IMO - but there's several who are cool with thieves. This is the list of deities with the thievery subdomain:

Spoiler:

Achaekek, Alichino, Andirifkhu, Areshkagal, Bastet, Besmara, Calistria, Dahak, Droskar, Gavidya, Lamashtu, Lao Shu Po, Lorthact, Mahathallah, Mestama, Muronna, Nivi Rhombodazzle, Norgorber, Nyarlathotep (Black Pharaoh), Ruzel, Sun Wukong, Thamir Gixx, The Lantern King, Verex, Zogmugot

Besmara is the closest to your concept I think; she's all about piracy. Calistria could easily have a thieves guild that follows her. Bastet is more about secrets and laziness, but could fit. Nivi Rhombodazzle is true neutral, and stealth/gamblers/gems is a reasonable set of interests to match with a thieves guild.

[Derklord]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Translated to D&D alignments, the god is probably CN and Father Chains might be CG

I heaven't read the books, but from what you've described, hell no - stealing for personal gain is Evil, there's no way around it. That makes both the god and the priest Evil.

This doesn't include Robin Hood types (those are more freedom fighters than full-time thieves), or people living in an oppressive regime that don't have much of a chance otherwise (those usually aren't full-time thieves either), but the "pickpocket / shoplifter / burglar type thieves" steal for their own personal gain and not out of some Good political agenda or absolute need, and are thus Evil.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Wow, that's a lot of evil deities, and... um, Besmara (pirates), Calistria (elf sexytimes), Nimbi (gambling and gens), Sun Wukong (drunken fun and trickery), and the Lantern King (Elder fey).

Hum.

Doug M.

[Tim Emrick]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

2) A good-aligned deity who is NOT actually a deity of thieves, but whose worshipper could be a full-time thief in order to accomplish some higher, better goal. Like, you join the local Thieves Guild and you actually steal stuff and whatnot for a while, because they're the only ones with the skills to find the evil artifact hidden beneath the city? I think this almost has to be a CG deity, yes? A worshipper of Desna could probably get away with it, but ehhh Desna's really obvious. Who else?

My "dash-one" in PFS is a rogue who worships Cayden Cailean, and who even dipped a single level of cleric on his way to Seeker. Ansari's skill set is very much focused on the trap-finding burglar schtick, but he uses those skills on behalf of the Society to help his team navigate ancient sites safely, out-maneuver their enemies, rescue prisoners, and so on. He's one of the most honest thieves you'll ever meet. Cayden appeals to him as a god of bold action, playing for high stakes--followed by rowdy partying to celebrate that you miraculously survived it all.

[Secret Wizard]

I'm sure Picoperi would be down for robbing too