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How does the Brawling Blademaster's Empty Hand interact with Two-Weapon defense?
Would I be allowed to take Two-Weapon Defense with it?
Does Empty Hand giving monk level in regards to damage mean that the Brawling blademaster's attack now do full strength damage as well?
Does Empty Hand give the unarmed attack the manufactured property monks get for their unarmed attacks and for improvements?
If so does that mean two-week defense is possible?
The BB Samurai doesn't get the monk's flurry of blows or the monk's unarmed strike ability, just the damage from the table and the improved unarmed strike feat. Two-weapon defence works 'When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes)'.
Basically no, none of the stuff you're asking about works.
Does Empty Hand give the unarmed attack the manufactured property monks get for their unarmed attacks and for improvements?
The question is based on a misconception. Monks do not get a "manufactured property" (which isn't an existing thing anyway), but rather their "unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." This isn't a blanked "counts as" thing, it's only for very specific things, namely effects (feats/traits/items/class features/etc.), which does not include general rules or things simply requiring such a weapon without enhancing it. Since TWD doesn't "enhance or improve" your attacks, but rather improves AC, a Monk's unarmed strike doesn't allow TWD, either.
Their is dodge. And crane style, or snake, or snapping turtle, or swordplay or other stuff I can't think of.
I would question though, the intent behind brawling blademaster. It seems to me that a "blademaster" that brawls would be able to know how to defend himself with his style of combat.
It's meant to be a lightly armored strength-based brawler, which translates to bad AC at lower levels. By level 10 you should have slightly worse AC than Heavy Armor, or the same if you secured a way to negate the last point of ACP from a Mithral breastplate. Your touch AC is always gonna be better, though.
Seems to cement snapping turtle style.
If you're not gonna grapple then Turtle Style is a bad choice if you want more AC. Crane Style (as mentioned above) would give you +5 AC for the cost of two feats and a -2 penalty to attacks.
If you're open for dips, then one level into fighter would give you heavy armor proficiency and a combat feat you can spend on Improved Shield Bash for a shield-n-fist build. At lower levels that's probably +7 to AC, but you may want to retrain at higher levels.
But I'd take the Additional Traits feat for Armor Expert and Regional Recluse (to qualify for Imp Shield Bash) instead of dipping. Just get a Darkwood heavy shield so you don't take any attack penalty.
I would question though, the intent behind brawling blademaster. It seems to me that a "blademaster" that brawls would be able to know how to defend himself with his style of combat.
You seem to be a bit hung up on the Two-Weapon Defense feat. To put it bluntly, the feat is rather weak, and certianly not something that makes or breaks any character. There are plenty of ways to increase your AC that this archetype can easily take; Java Man listed some, what's missing is (somewhat ironic) Medium Armor Proficiency - the archetype doesn't actually have any reason not to wear heavier armor. I do support taking a dip into a heavy armor granting class, though.
However, the archetype is indeed more flavor than substance, because TWFing with a weapon + unarmed strike would need more support to be good. That is what you're striving to do, right?
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Yeah, was just looking for ways to boost AC without reduction in to hit.
The archetype is newer than two-weapon defense, and I think it should have had some more wording to somehow allow the two weapon fighting chain / set of feats to be taken.
I don't disagree with you that the archetype is not the most damage output, but flavor is flavor.
I merely wanted to verify I wasn't missing something in the way those two things worked, and wanted to point out the equivalence of both those feats providing +1 shield AC.
what's missing is (somewhat ironic) Medium Armor Proficiency - the archetype doesn't actually have any reason not to wear heavier armor. I do support taking a dip into a heavy armor granting class, though.
It does grant you the Nimble class feature which only works in light or no armor. So at lv 2 you're just one AC behind medium armor, making the Proficiency feat hardly worth it.
Dipping for heavy armor is dependent on how low your Dex mod is, with anything higher than +1 making it a less attractive option. If you have a +2 mod you'd be two points of AC behind at level 6, but could wear Mithral medium armor to have equal AC to someone using heavy armor.
A lower Dex mod would make this breakpoint appear at lv 10 instead.
Even a single classed Blademaster using light armor should have comparable AC to a vanilla Samurai at lv 6 since they also ignore the AC penalty from Challenge starting at lv 5.
However, the archetype is indeed more flavor than substance, because TWFing with a weapon + unarmed strike would need more support to be good.
Ech, as long as Handwraps are on the table it's not that much worse than any other TWF build. Having a hand free is pretty useful, too.
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@Yure
Spending one feat for one point of AC isn't a great choice, and the Blademaster actually has the potential for better AC than the normal class starting at lv 6.
The archetype is newer than two-weapon defense, and I think it should have had some more wording to somehow allow the two weapon fighting chain / set of feats to be taken.
I'd guess they didn't because no one cares about the feat. Seriously, that's not a feat worthy of consideration when writing an archetype. All other TWF feats work.
It does grant you the Nimble class feature which only works in light or no armor. So at lv 2 you're just one AC behind medium armor, making the Proficiency feat hardly worth it.
I have actually planned a more in-depth evaluation, I guess I cut it down too much. What I meant was that a) there's plenty of other feats to improve armor, and b) if the archetype wouldn't lose proficiency, no one would consider playing it without heavy armor. Sorry for being unclear/misleading.
Ech, as long as Handwraps are on the table it's not that much worse than any other TWF build. Having a hand free is pretty useful, too.
I was mostly comparing it to pure unarmed TWF, actually. Since handwraps come in pair, you can TWF with them at the enchantment cost of a single weapon, and pure unarmed also has pounce.
The archetype wants you to use both a weapon and unarmed strikes, but it doesn't really give much support for that. You don't need high Dex, but then it removes your armor proficiency, which you want on a strength based character. You get TWF as a bonus feat, but have fewer overall feats than most classes somehow leaning towards TWF. The weapon-unarmed-mix thing is only supported by a measly +2 to attack rolls (which, to add insult to injury, only works if you have a free hand).
Of course, it all wouldn't be bad it wasn't an archetype for Samurai, one of the weakest classes in the game.
I was mostly comparing it to pure unarmed TWF, actually. Since handwraps come in pair, you can TWF with them at the enchantment cost of a single weapon, and pure unarmed also has pounce.
I had to look this up, and it's actually intended.
I was sure handwraps was meant to help unarmed monk/brawler builds that can already attack with one hand escape the AoMF cost, but it's actually more beneficial for every other class.
Yet another reason handwraps should never have been published.
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Actually guys thanks for the discussion. Really helpful. It's my belief that brawling blademaster's off-hand should not be considered just a regular unarmed strike, due to how it uses two-weapon fighting instead of flurry of blows.
But my feelings are neither here nor there. Rules are rules.
However as I was considering style feats to pair up with the style I kept coming back to snapping turtle style and boar style.
I really wanted the random extra damage from boar style since it bypasses DR.
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I really wanted the random extra damage from boar style since it bypasses DR. Actually guys thanks for the discussion. Really helpful. It's my belief that brawling blademaster's off-hand should not be considered just a regular unarmed strike, due to how it uses two-weapon fighting instead of flurry of blows.
But my feelings are neither here nor there. Rules are rules.
However as I was considering style feats to pair up with the style I kept coming back to snapping turtle style and boar style.
I really wanted the random extra damage from boar style since it bypasses DR.
But I really wanted to reduce the damage I could possibly take. Now I know some of you think +1 AC is not worth a feat. In this build I've already spent 2 feats on dodge and mythic dodge. Totally not worth it probably, but I think it will be fun.
But I got to think about snapping turtle style +1 AC to shield... meh... and later I could spend ANOTHER feat on another +1... Really meh...But it could mean less hits... But then I started thinking about snapping turtle clutch, man what a waste of a feat... why would you even call it clutch? Why does it even have to do with grappling? Turtles don't grapple!
That's when it hit me! The whole style is about defense. But how is this used in the defense? Imagine this; you are in combat toe to toe. Enemy full attacks you, first swing misses (though it's probably going to be a hit... But it could miss!) Immediate action engage a grapple! It succeeds! Enemy's full attack comes to a complete halt! Enemy is now grappled, and all your party members can take whack at it on a penalty. Your turn, drop the grapple, full attack!
I am thoroughly surprised I have seen no threads about this feats based on that premise...
But I really wanted to reduce the damage I could possibly take. Now I know some of you think +1 AC is not worth a feat. In this build I've already spent 2 feats on dodge and mythic dodge. Totally not worth it probably, but I think it will be fun.
But I got to think about snapping turtle style +1 AC to shield... meh... and later I could spend ANOTHER feat on another +1... Really meh...But it could mean less hits... But then I started thinking about snapping turtle clutch, man what a waste of a feat... why would you even call it clutch? Why does it even have to do with grappling? Turtles don't grapple!
That's when it hit me! The whole style is about defense. But how is this used in the defense? Imagine this; you are in combat toe to toe. Enemy full attacks you, first swing misses (though it's probably going to be a hit... But it could miss!) Immediate action engage a grapple! It succeeds! Enemy's full attack comes to a complete halt! Enemy is now grappled, and all your party members can take whack at it on a penalty. Your turn, drop the grapple, full attack!
I am thoroughly surprised I have seen no threads about this feats based on that premise...
Being grappled does not prevent a full attack.