| Stregi |
Hi guys! Few questions,
1: is buckler considered wield?
2: if it's not, can I use it with "reactive shield" anyway?
3: if it is, can I use it with the "double slice" feat( with boss upgrade)?
4:if I can use it with "double slice" how does interact with feats that require to have one hand free?
Thx in advance
| WatersLethe |
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's see:
General Shield Rules: Your character must be wielding a shield in one hand to make use of it, and it grants its bonus to AC only if they use an action to Raise a Shield.
Buckler: This very small shield is a favorite of duelists and quick, lightly armored warriors. It’s typically made of steel and strapped to your forearm. You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand.
Wielding: You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively. When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it. Other abilities might require you to merely carry or have an item. These apply as long as you have the item on your person; you don’t have to wield it.
Reactive Shield: You are wielding a shield. You can snap your shield into place just as you would take a blow, avoiding the hit at the last second. You immediately use the Raise a Shield action and gain your shield’s bonus to AC.
Shield Bash: Hands 1. A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack.
Shield Boss: Hands 1. Typically a round, convex, or conical piece of thick metal attached to the center of a shield, a shield boss increases the bludgeoning damage of a shield bash.
Double Slice: You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand. Make two Strikes, one with each of your two melee weapons, each using your current multiple attack penalty.
Snagging Strike: You have one hand free, and your target is within reach of that hand. Make a Strike while keeping one hand free.
So, to answer the questions:
1. Yes, the buckler is considered wielded if you plan to use it for anything. It has a special property which lets you allow that hand to be considered free for non-weapons, or open hand combat.
2. If your hand has another weapon in it, you wouldn't be able to use Reactive Shield. This doesn't seem to be a problem for you.
3. You can use Double Slice with a shield boss. Interestingly, the way Shield Bash is worded it implies you couldn't Double Slice without a Shield Boss or Spikes.
4. If you are using your Buckler as a weapon, it appears to be taking up your hand. If you are only using your buckler defensively, it appears to leave your hand free for the purpose of those free hand feats. Thus, I don't think you can combine Double Slice and free hand feats with the buckler.
| Stregi |
4. If you are using your Buckler as a weapon, it appears to be taking up your hand. If you are only using your buckler defensively, it appears to leave your hand free for the purpose of those free hand feats. Thus, I don't think you can combine Double Slice and free hand feats with the buckler.
When you write that double slice and one-handed feat doesn't work together, you mean by RAI or RAW, 'cause I think that this rules are a mess XD
| WatersLethe |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
WatersLethe wrote:When you write that double slice and one-handed feat doesn't work together, you mean by RAI or RAW, 'cause I think that this rules are a mess XD
4. If you are using your Buckler as a weapon, it appears to be taking up your hand. If you are only using your buckler defensively, it appears to leave your hand free for the purpose of those free hand feats. Thus, I don't think you can combine Double Slice and free hand feats with the buckler.
RAW, based on how I read them. Double Slice requires you to have a weapon in both hands, and Shield Boss makes your Buckler into a weapon to qualify. However, since they are being wielded as a weapon, you lose the free hand. You can still block with the buckler, because it's still the shield you are wielding.
If Shield Bash, Boss, and Spikes didn't have the "1 hand" requirement to wield them, you would probably be in the clear.
I believe this aligns with RAI, because shield bosses and spikes were probably envisioned as being used with a regular shield, not a buckler. Getting the benefit of having a shield, a weapon, and a free hand all at once is clearly not something they want, otherwise the free hand feats would be essentially required to use with a bashing buckler.
Ascalaphus
|
Well all that Raise Shield/Reactive Shield care about is that the buckler-hand is free at the time you want to raise it, and stays free while raised. Whether you made an attack with it earlier on is not relevant.
Double Slice, if you read it very precisely, doesn't seem to work with bucklers, because bucklers aren't in your hand, they're on your arm. Although you're wielding the buckler (ready to use it), you're not wielding it in your hand, which is what Double Slice requires.
I also think this is probably not an accident, because Paizo seems to be aiming for several different fighting styles:
- One two-handed weapon
- Two weapons / sword and board
- One one-handed weapon, sort of fencing style
And they don't want one style to steal the toys of the other style.
| WatersLethe |
Hmmm, now that I'm thinking about it, even Fist is listed as using 1 Hand on the weapon chart. Can a Fist be considered a weapon for Double Slice?
Anyway, the way I'm reading it is that if you're wielding a weapon that says it requires 1 hand, then you are down one free hand. Since all the bashes (and even Fist) require 1 hand to wield, you can't combine them with a Free Hand requirement.
| Wheldrake |
IMHO, the approach to bucklers is all wrong. Especially one with a shield boss.
This sort of shield would be gripped by the handle behind the boss, not "strapped to your arm" at all. It would make a good punching weapon, and ought to work with double slice or other TWF feats just as well as with reactive shield.
Indeed, a large shield with a shield boss would work the same way, as it would be held the same way.
| WatersLethe |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IMHO, the approach to bucklers is all wrong. Especially one with a shield boss.
This sort of shield would be gripped by the handle behind the boss, not "strapped to your arm" at all. It would make a good punching weapon, and ought to work with double slice or other TWF feats just as well as with reactive shield.
Indeed, a large shield with a shield boss would work the same way, as it would be held the same way.
That all goes without saying. Throw it on the pile with Longswords and Studded Leather Armor.
Ascalaphus
|
Hmmm, now that I'm thinking about it, even Fist is listed as using 1 Hand on the weapon chart. Can a Fist be considered a weapon for Double Slice?
Anyway, the way I'm reading it is that if you're wielding a weapon that says it requires 1 hand, then you are down one free hand. Since all the bashes (and even Fist) require 1 hand to wield, you can't combine them with a Free Hand requirement.
No, unarmed strikes are not weapons.
However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
Ascalaphus
|
Now i'm lost XD.
So a buckler can't be used as a weapon while using the double slice feat?
Ambiguous. Shield bash/boss/spike list "1" hand in table 6-7, suggesting they're wielded with the hand. Double Slice requires them to be in the hand. However, that raises the question of whether you can use Dueling Parry with a rapier and buckler, since the buckler would be a weapon on your other hand, but it would also be free.
| WatersLethe |
WatersLethe wrote:Hmmm, now that I'm thinking about it, even Fist is listed as using 1 Hand on the weapon chart. Can a Fist be considered a weapon for Double Slice?
Anyway, the way I'm reading it is that if you're wielding a weapon that says it requires 1 hand, then you are down one free hand. Since all the bashes (and even Fist) require 1 hand to wield, you can't combine them with a Free Hand requirement.
No, unarmed strikes are not weapons.
p.278 wrote:However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
Sweet, thanks!
| Stregi |
Stregi wrote:Ambiguous. Shield bash/boss/spike list "1" hand in table 6-7, suggesting they're wielded with the hand. Double Slice requires them to be in the hand. However, that raises the question of whether you can use Dueling Parry with a rapier and buckler, since the buckler would be a weapon on your other hand, but it would also be free.Now i'm lost XD.
So a buckler can't be used as a weapon while using the double slice feat?
That's exactly what i'm trying to understand.... I hope someone will find a solution someday XD
Ascalaphus
|
Now that I think about it... What happens if I wear a gauntlet? Does it work with double slice? Something like, weapon in main hand, gauntlet + buckler in offhand? If I'm not mistaken gauntlet has the free hand trait.
Well, you can use a gauntlet with Double Slice, since it's clearly a weapon in/on your hand. And you can combine a gauntlet with a buckler: "as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand."
You are in fact holding weapon in that hand, but because it's still free due to free-hand and you only need one of the conditions to be true, you can still use the buckler.