Talismans currently work for a single turn only, despite requiring you to commit to using them beforehand (=affixing them), not working automatically (there are often restrictions on use, the monster gets a save, etc), costing a lot of money, and honestly not having much of an effect.
So I'd say they're basically utter trash.
How about the following house rule to make them actually deserve their level and price, and justify the bother with choosing them and affixing them? How balanced would you say the following is?
Talisman rule update: A Talisman works for a whole Encounter (use 1 minute if you desire a time reference). Once affixed, it activates automatically when you use your weapon or armor (=you will not want to affix it until you expect a significant encounter).
Yes, for every action in the whole encounter. A Dazing Coil (p566) for example would not be spent on maybe shaving off one (1) action from some enemy. Instead, it could potentially shave off a dozen actions from your enemies.
I think this would make Talismans actually worth the effort of reading up on what they do, thinking about when to affix them, and generally not consider them vendor trash anymore.
What do you think? Too strong, not enough, or just right? :-)
Talismans are currently in the same spot as poison on a weapon: You have to apply them before combat and they only work once.
I think there is a reason for that.
Franz Lunzer wrote: Talismans are currently in the same spot as poison on a weapon: You have to apply them before combat and they only work once.
I think there is a reason for that.
Much more important is: is the item cool and fun to use? Is it worth keeping track of?
If the answers to these questions are "no" and "no", then what's the point of having them or discussing them?
Instead, this homebrew thread is instead intended to discuss ways to transform Talismans from a waste of rulebook space into something that might actually be used in play! :-)
(If you really want to discuss or defend the current implementation, I'm discussing this over at EN World, here: https://www.enworld.org/threads/is-pathfinder-2-paizos-4e.660290/post-78110 18 and subsequent posts)
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
I've seem suggestions making the price shown, being for a batch of consumables, to make the price seem more worthwhile. Comparisons were made that one should never make a consumable, when a wand or similar permanent item with no caster requirement of similar level is almost invariably the same cost, or less. There is a Nova flexibility that the consumables have, but still the general concern has some distinct merit, if not entirely accurate.
I will also admit that I might have a bit of inclination to boost the time of some items a little. When I first read about the Potency Crystal, I was inclined to let it take effect until the end of their next turn.
Another thought I had was making Talismans potentially not always be destroyed after one use. A flat check DC10 not too unlike over-charged uses of wands. But you would roll on the first/only use each day. With a chance it gets destroyed, and a chance it remains for an extra use.
As for the item automatically activating a talisman because the weapon/armor was used, I would be against that. I like the idea of the ability being their for reserved use. I don't want to have to spend 10 minutes before an encounter to enable use of the talisman we have.
So a potency crystal does the same exact thing as a scroll of magic weapon and costs the same, doesn't require an action to draw, doesn't require a hand to hold it, doesn't require 2 actions to cast, and doesn't require you to be a spell caster?
I suspect many others can make similar parallels to existing spell Consumables.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
talismans are stuff that you find in loot, and less stuff you go out and buy
The main power budget in talismans is the fact that they're free actions.
Think of the old Contingency spell, it didn't deal damage, it didn't overwhelm whole encounters, it was a high level slot, and yet I never heard of people calling it weak.
Free action effects are good.
If you want them to last a long time, you better be ready to spend a turn activating the scroll.
You cut out the main draw of the talisman by forcing it to auto-activate at the start of the next fight. Now instead of having an emergency button to push mid-fight to solve a problem, you just have another flavor of prebuff in front of the big boss double doors, and throw in added unfun of occasionally accidentally triggering it on a mook fight in the antichamber between the big boss double doors and the big boss throne room.
Then you replaced it with them being just effects that are poorly balanced and full of glitches. Several won't benefit at all due to circumstance (like the Vanishing Coin, which stops helping as soon as you decide to participate in the combat, the Savior Spike which stops helping once you run out of edges to jump towards and miss, the Eye of Apprehension as soon as you are done rolling initiative, etc). Others lose out of combat utility, like the Emerald Grasshopper because you need to enter an Encounter (unless you meant every time you enter encounter mode at all, which comes with it's own host of problems). Not to mention how you don't want to interact with several of the utility talismans at all because you can't readily anticipate needing to climb or whatnot so you are more likely to just waste the talisman if you affix it, and are better off selling it. And some are too good, see BellyBeard's Potency Crystal comment.
If you want to change the effects of the talismans, you are going to have to do a more up-close adjustment to them, going through and seeing how each one fails to meet your standards and boosting the effect until it does. A broad band-aid like this just isn't going to cut it, they have too much variance.
In PFS they can be free.
So there's that.
How about if Talismans have 3 charges? When found as treasure, roll a 1d3 to see how many charges it has left before it crumbles to dust.
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Gorbacz wrote: Fun fact: if you call things "utter trash", which serves no purpose beyond making yourself feel more edgy and razor-sharp for a minute, you drastically reduce the chance of anybody discussing anything with you. I, for example, was almost ready to post something of substance, but then I saw your language aaaand here we are. I didn't try to use edgy language, and won't apologize for my opinion.
I carefully analyzed the items and came up with the most objective and neutral label I could think of: I really think "utter trash" is a fair label.
Since you spend more time writing them down on your character sheet and thinking about when to affix it, and then again when to use it, than you spend time enjoying its benefits, I would say they're actively un-fun to use.
But I would much rather discuss ways to make all those rulebook pages useful than argue exactly how worthless the RAW is. Hence this thread being in the homebrew forum.
Cheers
Loreguard wrote: I've seem suggestions making the price shown, being for a batch of consumables, to make the price seem more worthwhile. Comparisons were made that one should never make a consumable, when a wand or similar permanent item with no caster requirement of similar level is almost invariably the same cost, or less. There is a Nova flexibility that the consumables have, but still the general concern has some distinct merit, if not entirely accurate.
I will also admit that I might have a bit of inclination to boost the time of some items a little. When I first read about the Potency Crystal, I was inclined to let it take effect until the end of their next turn.
Another thought I had was making Talismans potentially not always be destroyed after one use. A flat check DC10 not too unlike over-charged uses of wands. But you would roll on the first/only use each day. With a chance it gets destroyed, and a chance it remains for an extra use.
As for the item automatically activating a talisman because the weapon/armor was used, I would be against that. I like the idea of the ability being their for reserved use. I don't want to have to spend 10 minutes before an encounter to enable use of the talisman we have.
Thank you for your input, but my stance is that the RAW is too far removed from something with enough substance to actually bother using.
If you really want to keep them as-is, I'm having trouble coming up with a rules scenario where my players would bother using them.
Maybe if they were worth 1/10th of the current price, and you could thread all your Talismans on a string, wear them as a necklace and then basically activate any one of them for free whenever you want, they might just use them.
But that's a big maybe. Problem is, it's still a lot of clutter writing down what each one does, and when it can and can't be used. And then remembering you have them from session to session. Basically, too much rules for the benefit.
I would much rather make them work for longer so players would actually look forward to using them.
It is much better if you have few but powerful magic items, and Talismans are the direct opposite of that.
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BellyBeard wrote: So a potency crystal does the same exact thing as a scroll of magic weapon and costs the same, doesn't require an action to draw, doesn't require a hand to hold it, doesn't require 2 actions to cast, and doesn't require you to be a spell caster?
I suspect many others can make similar parallels to existing spell Consumables.
You're not the first one to bring up potency crystals, as if they are representative of Talismans.
They're not.
They probably are among the most powerful Talismans, and any discussion of the magic item category is much better off if we instead look at other Talismans. Just for funsies, let's look at those just above or below it in the listing.
Owlbear Claw means you must wait until you crit, remember you have this affixed, and then get... a status effect on the monster. And only for those that do not already get that effect for free.
Savior Spike is really testing my patience. It is so ultra-specific it isn't even funny. And it doesn't even help you if you fail!
In my view the design of Owlbear Claw and Savior Spike is nothing short of nightmarish. They are so far removed from reasonable I am speechless when confronted by the idea that I am expected to actually bother spending time using them.
That's why we are here, in the house rules forum!
Bandw2 wrote: talismans are stuff that you find in loot, and less stuff you go out and buy If you consider Talismans to be like valuable jewelry, that is, something the players just sell (for half price), then okay, you don't need to do anything. Just write up a "Jade Cat" as "3 gp" on your character sheet, and done.
My issue is that this basically means several pages of rulebook becomes inert, unused. Which is why I'm here in homebrew discussing ways to "thaw" those pages, boost Talismans into something players might actually use on occasion.
This will likely still not mean they will ever buy them in stores, but that is okay. Cheers
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Ediwir wrote: The main power budget in talismans is the fact that they're free actions.
Think of the old Contingency spell, it didn't deal damage, it didn't overwhelm whole encounters, it was a high level slot, and yet I never heard of people calling it weak.
Free action effects are good.
If you want them to last a long time, you better be ready to spend a turn activating the scroll.
Unless I completely misread you, your post comes across as "Talismans are basically fit for purpose".
This is why I will repost my analysis (from over at ENWorld) of the 14th level Dazing Coil, just for you!
CapnZapp, post: 7811192, member: 12731 wrote:
No, that to me is awful. You're talking about a level 14 item!
The Dazing Coil means the target loses a single action from a single round. That's hardly even perceptible. It's the weakest third of the monster's turn, for a single turn.
And that's not all. It isn't even automatic - the monster gets a save.
And that's not all. It even carries a fiddly restriction in that it only works of the target is flat-footed, as if there was some monumental imbalance if it could work on everything.
And that's not all. You can't even use it on the spur of the moment - you must deliberately spend time choosing this particular talisman to affix to your weapon instead of some other talisman.
And that's not all - it costs 900 gold! So, instead of going through this rigamarole you could just sell it for 450 gold. Or maybe throw it in the trash.
Not only would you then not have to write down and administer and remember to use this incredibly fiddly and minor little trifle, you could also buy every single person in the entire town a beer!
So, no, I would say there's nothing even remotely sane about talismans. Just discussing it as if there was any dimension where someone would actually go through the motions necessary* to maybe shave a third of a turn from a single monster makes me shudder.
*) To find it or buy it. To read up on what it does. To keep it. To spend time between encounters choosing it. To write down that choice! To remember having made the choice!! To do so at an appropriate time!?! To actually feel good about oneself as if it was worth the trouble!!??!! ಠ_ಠ
I would say it is nothing short of nightmare of petty fiddliness that reminds me of 4th edition in the worst possible way, and I really need to wake up now...! But maybe that's just me.
Paradozen wrote: You cut out the main draw of the talisman by forcing it to auto-activate at the start of the next fight. Now instead of having an emergency button to push mid-fight to solve a problem, you just have another flavor of prebuff in front of the big boss double doors, and throw in added unfun of occasionally accidentally triggering it on a mook fight in the antichamber between the big boss double doors and the big boss throne room.
Then you replaced it with them being just effects that are poorly balanced and full of glitches. Several won't benefit at all due to circumstance (like the Vanishing Coin, which stops helping as soon as you decide to participate in the combat, the Savior Spike which stops helping once you run out of edges to jump towards and miss, the Eye of Apprehension as soon as you are done rolling initiative, etc). Others lose out of combat utility, like the Emerald Grasshopper because you need to enter an Encounter (unless you meant every time you enter encounter mode at all, which comes with it's own host of problems). Not to mention how you don't want to interact with several of the utility talismans at all because you can't readily anticipate needing to climb or whatnot so you are more likely to just waste the talisman if you affix it, and are better off selling it. And some are too good, see BellyBeard's Potency Crystal comment.
If you want to change the effects of the talismans, you are going to have to do a more up-close adjustment to them, going through and seeing how each one fails to meet your standards and boosting the effect until it does. A broad band-aid like this just isn't going to cut it, they have too much variance.
Thank you for your well-reasoned feedback.
So you're basically saying "making them auto-activate is a mistake"? That it isn't enough to make you choose carefully when and where you affix one?
My idea was that good magic item design means giving out real power, but forcing the player to choose carefully when and where to use it.
After all, if you prepare for the big fight, and unexpectedly face a couple of mooks first (and realize the BBEG is still more than a minute away), isn't it better to draw a different weapon for that fight?
Savior Spike does nothing when you miss. It turns a success into a critical success, for whatever that does to you. I don't see a problem with you not affixing this until you reach a cliff face you suspect will contain combat or whatever.
Eye of apprehension might become a little weaker, since you very seldom roll initiative more than once in a single minute, yes. It really should give "advantage" on the next ten encounters, but honestly I'm not prepared to tweak my rule just for the exceptions.
Vanishing Coin also becomes less reliable, but still, I can see a use case for this.
Regarding Potency Crystals, as I have said before, the problem isn't my houserule, but that Potency Crystals are just about the only Talisman that's worth using per RAW. I think the better solution if you're not comfortable with the power boost is to simply not let the players find any. (They should probably change the price of these, seeing that they are much more valuable than any similarly-priced Talisman)
Myself, I know from decades of gamesmastering that extra damage never breaks a campaign. I could just throw in a couple of extra monsters. So I'm honestly not worried about Potency Crystals. In fact, I'm delighted there will at least be one item the players will climb over each other to get! :-)
So in summary: thank you for your insightful attempt to break my house rule. If those examples are the "worst" that could happen, I gain confidence my houserule will actually work.
Again thank you for engaging. Cheers
Samurai wrote: How about if Talismans have 3 charges? When found as treasure, roll a 1d3 to see how many charges it has left before it crumbles to dust. I'm sorry but to me, that just adds even more overhead.
My problem is that Talismans are 99% overhead and 1% utility, and so I need more drastic changes (as should be evident from reading my other recent replies).
Thank you for responding!
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I like stuff like "bronze bull pendant".
a +2, which can be active with a free action, on a shove check is worth the 7 golds it costs.
What concerns me instead is:
-Way too expensive talismans.
-Talismans with a flat DC.
The first kind, could let the player wonder if it wouldn't be better to sell it and get back part of the golds needed for an item he wants.
However, it is mandatory to remember that some high lvl talisman ( like a dispelling sliver p566) could be definitely powerful in the right hands, and let the fight end 1 or 2 rounds before ( eventually, without deaths ).
The second kind instead, couldn't be the right choice for many reasons:
- Fairplay ( since it's a DC the DM has to pass, given the DM screen, it is possible that he decides that the fight will be more epic if the monster pass the DC, even if it was a failure check ).
- Not so 50/50 dc.
Let's take for instance the dazing coil p566.
Quote: When you activate the coil, the damaged creature must succeed at a DC 31 Will save or be stunned 1. If it critically fails, it instead becomes stunned 2. This is a lvl 14 item, so let's compare it with a lvl 14 or less creature.
LVL 10 - Fire Giant. +18 WILL = SAVE WITH 13+ ( 40% success ).
LVL 11 - Greater Nightmare. +21 = SAVE WITH 10+ ( 55% success )
LVL 12 - Great Cyclops. +22 WILL = SAVE WITH 8+ ( 60% success ).
LVL 13 - Gelugon. +26 WILL ( +1 status vs magic ) = SAVE WITH 5+ ( 85% success ).
LVL 14 - Adult Red Dragon. +26 WILL ( +1 status vs magic )= SAVE WITH 5+ ( 85% success ).
ps:
As you see, you would have a fair chance of success on creatures 3/4 lvl under the item level.
Personally, I wouldn't consider this specific talisman worth it.
I could consider using it if we were able to get it at lower level as showed.
Alright, first of all:
Chill.
You're not here to argue a point or fight people. You're here to propose a houserule, and it's not being well received. Take the hit and figure out why that's the case.
That being said, [u]there is indeed a problem with Talismans[/u], and you have an actual point hidden somewhere that I agree with.
It's not power, however. As I said, free action powerups are valuable and useful, and you'll have a hard time arguing the opposite (in fact, you haven't).
The DC "issue" you present is also not really the issue, as the lv14 item you present is normally something you'll find around level 13-15, and at those level the average range of enemies goes from 9-13 to 11-15 (even lv15 characters don't normally face large groups of adult red dragons), with slightly higher numbers showing up occasionally. This is something that only comes up in game, so it's less of a whiteroom discussion and more of a "huh, that's funny" realisation once you GM enough.
Duration is... close to being the issue. You were on a decent track at the start.
There was a suggestion up above with the idea of giving talismans charges. It's fiddly and a bit annoying to track, but it's effectively a take on duration. Close, again.
A lot of talk about talismans being excessively situational. Again, good. Getting there.
A blanket stretch of durations isn't working for all talismans, because not all of them benefit from it.
Charges aren't working for all talismans, because they're a power boost that doesn't actually necessarily extend the life of them equally (and some talismans, as you pointed out, fall off after a few levels, either because you gain their benefit passively or for other reasons).
Changing the effect of every single talisman is a massive rework, and house rules must keep in mind a cost:benefit ratio. The harder they are to implement, the more they must be needed.
So we're trying to find something simple, that affects all Talismans equally and that affects their main issue.
That's not power, duration or longevity. It's situationality, because the triggers are restrictive and specific while requiring preparation.
The thing that bummed me when I read talismans wasn't the effect or the prep or the powers - I can do enough math to understand that. It was the limit to 1 per armour/weapon, because there's various situations I want to be covered but cannot rely on them showing up frequently enough.
Allow up to 3 talismans to be attached to an armour or weapon.
That's the houserule you've been looking for.
Are you referring to me ( guess so, since there are no other dragon quotes on this thread, but because of the missing quote It was worth asking )
?
If so, you missed the whole point.
First, I am chilling.
Second, I am not arguing ( I started by saying that i like some talisman while I dislike some others, and made concrete examples in order to show what I meant ).
I do like how talisman are, but I mostly stick with some kind of talismans because of the reasons I listed, which are mostly "low cost" and "skill check bonus":
About the skill factor, because the benefits from a +2 on shove on a STR athletic build, to explain why I specifically mentioned the Bronze Bull Pendant, could easily mean a granted success and a very nice chance of a critical one.
Depends on the situation, I could even push somebody down the walls or a cliff.
For what instead concerns their cost, it is because I will definitely prefer to invest in different consumables, or even better a permanent Item ( and by selling them I could be able to gain golds for the whole party ).
Here is another idea: There is another conversation going on right now about overcharging Wands. I like the idea of rolling before the wand attempts it's second casting for the day and simply deactivating it till the next day if it fails and destroying it on a crit fail. What if Talismans worked in a similar way? You can use a Talisman once per day, and if you attempt to use it again, make a flat check. Success= works normally. Fail and it is deactivated until your next Daily Prep. A Crit Fail and it turns to dust. Crit Success and it works for 1 minute. I like this idea!
I decided to just use the same rules I made for Wands. It works once per day as normal. If you try using it again, you must first make a flat DC 10 check to reactivate it:
Crit Success: Item works normally
Success: Item works this time but is then deactivated until your next daily prep
Fail: Item fails to work and becomes broken. It must be repaired to be used again
Crit Fail: The item is destroyed
That might be good for the Crying Angel Pendant or the Potency Crystal, but won't do anything for Monkey Pins, Jade Cats or Saviour Spikes.
And no K1, you're good, I just borrowed your example because it doubled down on Zapp's coil comments :)
K1 wrote: ps:
As you see, you would have a fair chance of success on creatures 3/4 lvl under the item level.
In other words, on creatures so far below your own level you don't even get experience for fighting it (and oh yeah, the talisman still does buggerall about half the time).
Quote: I could consider using it if we were able to get it at lower level as showed. If it was a level 10 item with all the same stats (but cost to reflect the lower level) I still might not buy it. I'd have to be fighting a level 8 creature which is going to have a save of about +16, or a 30% chance for the item to get wasted
No thanks.
And oh yeah. This isn't even the worst thing printed.
Compare Grisley Tooth vs. Jade Stone, they both cost about the same (100gp; one of them's actually 90, but whatever)
Option a: a trinket that makes the enemy you've already attacked flat footed until the end of your turn
Option b: a trinket that makes all enemies within your reach flat footed until the start of your next turn
Or how about the invisibility coin (can't recall its actual name off hand). 160gp to be invisible until the end of your turn. It explicitly lists it as "2nd level invisibility" which, as a scroll, is 12gp (and lasts about a minute). Sure, its a cross-class effect, but wow, that cost differential.
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Draco18s wrote: K1 wrote: ps:
As you see, you would have a fair chance of success on creatures 3/4 lvl under the item level.
In other words, on creatures so far below your own level you don't even get experience for fighting it (and oh yeah, the talisman still does buggerall about half the time). Actually, lv-3/lv-4 are fairly common in printed adventures. they're the levels of your run-of-the-mill mooks and aides, with lv-1 usually being big leads and lv+1 being dungeon bosses. At least that's been my experience in mid-high level play, when you have a bit more leeway and variety in level selection. Low level, sure, it's different, but low levels have their own peculiarity in terms of resource managment and all.
Draco18s wrote: Compare Grisley Tooth vs. Jade Stone, they both cost about the same (100gp; one of them's actually 90, but whatever)
Option a: a trinket that makes the enemy you've already attacked flat footed until the end of your turn
Option b: a trinket that makes all enemies within your reach flat footed until the start of your next turn
option A: an item that, as a free action, makes an enemy flatfooted before you roll to attack. Free action flatfoot, no save, lasts your whole turn start to finish. How this can be considered weak, I'm not sure.
option B: an item that, as an action, makes multiple enemies flatfooted for a whole turn, allowing your allies to wreck havoc. Again, not a good example of bad item, but clearly different...
Draco18s wrote: Or how about the invisibility coin (can't recall its actual name off hand). 160gp to be invisible until the end of your turn. It explicitly lists it as "2nd level invisibility" which, as a scroll, is 12gp (and lasts about a minute). Sure, its a cross-class effect, but wow, that cost differential. Vanishing Coin? Again, we're back to action economy advantage. Free action invisibility isn't equivalent to 2-action invisibility, not even close. You'd need a 10th lv wizard feat just to reduce that to a single action. Add that it triggers on initiative roll and you notice some neat interactions with Rogue.
Are Talismans overpowered? Hell no. But you should read them before complaining, if you want to improve their value. No point trying to fix what's broken if you don't even know how it breaks.
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