Dumb question about form spells

[Gaulin]

Things like this makes me wish we had a simple questions thread, but oh well.

Just wondering if you add you str mod to damage to attacks made with form spells? Balance wise, I would assume yes, but I was hoping for clarification

[Kyrone]

I think that no, you use the damage modifier of the form.

Using the Dragon Form as an example.

"One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +22, and your damage bonus is +6. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead. See below for more on these attacks."

[Gaulin]

That's true. I wonder in the grand scheme of things how much worse that makes form spells than martial classes. But yeah I agree

[John Lynch 106]

I don’t think animal forms are meant to compete with martials. If you look at a 3rd level deer your getting 2d6+5 (12) vs fireball which is 6d6 (21 area affect). Depending on how many targets you get in the fireball it could take 4-6 rounds of animal form to equal fireball’s damage.

I’d expect two 3rd level spells to be comparable to each other.

[Aservan]

Form spells aren't about damage output. They're useful for their versatility. Take dragon form. It helps you do more damage in melee, but if you're comparing it to what a fighter can dish out you'll lose.

However, fighters can't usually fly like dragons, they don't have breath weapons, they don't usually have attacks that can't be disarmed, they can't fly the party on their backs, etc.

Polymorph spells are about doing lots of stuff. Vermin form lets a character who can't sneak worth beans infiltrate just about any medieval level dwelling. They all have rats, mice, bats, cats, sparrows, etc. Athletics check smells like last weeks road-kill? No problem, tiny flying critter to the rescue!

For wizards polymorph spells are mostly about preparing a spell that will probably be useful. For a sorcerer they are amazing. You only know a few spells so having one that can do a lot of different things is what adds value to the group.

[Castilliano]

I think the form spells are a good baseline for minimum martial prowess.
A "Must be this capable to frontline" bar to pass. For example, all these gish builders should see if they can get their gish to match or beat.

But martial classes offer extras, like Rage damage, Good damage, AoOs, precision damage, better MAP, Flurry, etc. Also better h.p., saves, and sometimes defensive proficiencies or feats.
That makes them superior. Meanwhile enemies will have comparable extras.

So form spells can make you a temporary martial or one that can support, but not a full-blown frontliner (not even for the whole minute duration) unless you're fighting below your level (and still using your highest spell).

Yet form spells also offer utility like flight, water breathing, grapple, or whatnot, and the only physical stat you need to boost is Con since the spell covers the rest. So form spells have a niche.

And I don't think they're being measured against the other spells so much as vs. generic martials (like if there were an NPC Warrior class again like in PF1). IMO, form spells are a viable way to gish, even if the concept departs from that armored wizard-warrior imagery.

Cheers

[Taenia]

Casters in this game are casters first other roles second. You can imagine a caster begins a fight dropping spells then moves onto cantrips. The form spells and wild shape basically fill a similar role, providing an alternative to cantrips once you have cast spells for the fight.

[jakjr15]

Kyrone wrote:

I think that no, you use the damage modifier of the form.

Using the Dragon Form as an example.

"One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +22, and your damage bonus is +6. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack modifier is higher, you can use it instead. See below for more on these attacks."

As you stated, the spell description lists a damage bonus and not a strength modifier. On pages 450 and 451 of the 2E Core Rule Book, it describes how to calculate damage.

"Melee damage roll = damage die of weapon or unarmed attack + Strength modifier + bonuses + penalties"

This tells me a jaws attack of a Black Dragon while in Dragon form will do 2d12 + Str + 6 piercing and 2d6 acid. Assuming a Strength of 18, the average damage would be 23 Piercing and 7 Acid for a total of 30 damage per strike. At level 11 (minimum level required to cast this spell) this is probably on par with a Dragon Instinct Barbarian with a Strength of 20 wielding a +2 Striking Greataxe (level 10 item) with a Corrosive property rune (level 8 item) dealing 2d12 + 5 STR + 8 Rage bonus + 2 item bonus + 2 Weapon Specialization + 1d6 acid for an average total of 33. But the Barbarian can do this every round of every combat where a caster can only become a dragon 2 times a day at this level. By level 12 a Wild Druid can do this each combat (granted he is able to refocus between combats) but the Barbarian would be able to increase his weapon to a +2 Greater Striking Greataxe (level 12 item) gaining another 1d12 for a total average of 39 as well as being able to grow wings to fly along side the Druid. Seems balanced to me.

Yes the Barbarian has to invest money in his weapon but do you really think a melee class of any type wouldn't do that?